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[frostshotgg]

Returning to the "Learn to play against assassins". Just because you suck doesn't mean the game should be balanced around it.

Out of genuine curiousity, what does "Learning to play against assassins" constitute? Its something I sometimes have trouble with, so any advice on the matter would actually be helpful.

At lower levels, that largely means learning when to punish them for mistakes/cooldowns. Did Kat just Q you and E onto a creep? She has no way to damage you well now, engage on her and try to trade. The single largest mistake I see bronze/silver people make when against an assassin or mage is getting a full combo blown and then running away before doing anything to trade back. If they just cast all 4 skills on you and you're still alive, that means you can turn around and kick their ass with your own full rotation. If Zed's going to use his W to farm, hang just outside its range until it expires and then he has a 10 second window or so where he can't do shit to fight back, even if he dinged you with a double Q. A lot of knowing rotations/timings will come from experience but the general principle of punishment is something a lot of people need to work on.

Later on, you can start thinking about how to proactively bully the assassin to stop them from ever being a threat, but that usually requires a decent knowledge of the matchup you're playing as well as some organization with teammates to make sure they can't just gank for free to catch up.

[UXLZ]

This is how to play against them in the laning phase, and while it's right, it also applies to just about every other champion in the game. (Especially the stuff about trading.)

What about after the laning phase? (Let's assume you didn't lane against the assassin.)

[Arcvasti]

Returning to the "Learn to play against assassins". Just because you suck doesn't mean the game should be balanced around it.

Out of genuine curiousity, what does "Learning to play against assassins" constitute? Its something I sometimes have trouble with, so any advice on the matter would actually be helpful.

At lower levels, that largely means learning when to punish them for mistakes/cooldowns. Did Kat just Q you and E onto a creep? She has no way to damage you well now, engage on her and try to trade. The single largest mistake I see bronze/silver people make when against an assassin or mage is getting a full combo blown and then running away before doing anything to trade back. If they just cast all 4 skills on you and you're still alive, that means you can turn around and kick their ass with your own full rotation. If Zed's going to use his W to farm, hang just outside its range until it expires and then he has a 10 second window or so where he can't do shit to fight back, even if he dinged you with a double Q. A lot of knowing rotations/timings will come from experience but the general principle of punishment is something a lot of people need to work on.

Later on, you can start thinking about how to proactively bully the assassin to stop them from ever being a threat, but that usually requires a decent knowledge of the matchup you're playing as well as some organization with teammates to make sure they can't just gank for free to catch up.

Makes sense. If an assassin just blew their entire kit on you and got you down to half health, they're helpless as a baby for a few seconds, so you might as well unload on them while they're vulnerable instead of blindly running away. Unless they're Zed or Fizz[Who both have powerful autoattacks], in which case running might not be a bad idea. Its a concept I've run across before, but I can definitely see how it'd apply to assassins in particular, since they rely on comboing you to death and then skedaddling, for the most part.

[frostshotgg]

Makes sense. If an assassin just blew their entire kit on you and got you down to half health, they're helpless as a baby for a few seconds, so you might as well unload on them while they're vulnerable instead of blindly running away. Unless they're Zed or Fizz[Who both have powerful autoattacks], in which case running might not be a bad idea. Its a concept I've run across before, but I can definitely see how it'd apply to assassins in particular, since they rely on comboing you to death and then skedaddling, for the most part.

With Zed, that's exactly why I listed him being (full) AD as his huge perk. Because it is. With Fizz, aside from that going away now, he's so absurdly squishy that if he isn't instagibbing you or using part of his combo to run away, you shouldn't have much issue punishing him really, really hard.

[Putnam]

Or you could position yourself correctly when you feel like you may be blown up such that you're liable to either counterattack or not be attacked to begin with...

tl;dr positioning?

[frostshotgg]

Baby steps, Putnam, baby steps.

[UXLZ]

Base stat comparisons of Fizz Vs. Zed, level 1 stats as well as growth. (Taken from the Wiki, may be a bit out of date.)

Health:

Fizz: 558.48, +86
Zed: 579.4,   +80

Zed has more base health at level 1, but by level 4 Fizz's higher growth means he will overtake Zed at level 4.

Armor:

Fizz: 22.412, +3.4
Zed: 26.88,   +3.5

Zed has more base armor and almost identical growth to Fizz. Zed will gain more effective HP %wise against physical attacks than Fizz does, however, by level 4 Fizz will have more health so they'll about equal out. They should be about the same in terms of tankiness vs. AD (Worth mentioning however is that Fizz's passive reduces damage from auto attacks.)

Magic Resist:

Fizz: 32.1, +1.25
Zed: 32.1, +1.25

Utterly identical.

So, the conclusion is that, from base stats alone (and while admittedly itemization does play a large part) Fizz and Zed are about equal in terms of tankiness, with Zed being better at level 1, and Fizz catching up to him rapidly at about level 4 and from then on staying roughly the same.

Is Zed absurdly squishy?

Or you could position yourself correctly when you feel like you may be blown up such that you're liable to either counterattack or not be attacked to begin with...

tl;dr positioning?

I still feel like that's a 'Here is how you play the game in general' sort of point, though, rather than assassins in particular.

[DemonOfWrath]

Zed gets lifsteal from Bork, so the even squishiness is a bit misleading because Zed will quickly get back to full hp if you don't kill him straight up, whereas Fizz can't.

The counterplay to assassins when laning is over is a combination of vision, so they can't explode your squishies from fog before you can react, and having crowd control for when they do go in, which frankly are two things you see very little of at lower levels of play and is why you see stuff like Master Yi be an utter monster at low elo but not at high elo, because then people know that you hit him with a stun and he dies. (Also the games a lower elos tend to just devolve into a dumb chaotic ARAM once laning ends and guess what champs thrive in that situation?)

With Fizz, sure he can dodge the first bit of crowd control with his E, but if he does that he's then vulnerable to the next, and used a large chunk of his damage potential avoiding that stun. Basically yeah, if you just let the assassin go in they will kill a squishy target, but if they get locked up by anything when trying to do that, they're dead. And there's always Exhaust to wreck their day as well (when Exhaust was 50% reduced damage for a few months it literally removed Zed as a competitive pick for example). As someone who plays a lot of support I'm never that worried about some assassin, because I'm always trying to keep the flanks lit up with wards, and 95% of the time I either have exhaust or a champ with a lot of crowd control to babysit my squishies with. Assassins are very, very vulnerable if you play around them properly.

[UXLZ]

True, but I'm generally at a mid-gold level, (though my norms tend to have plats/diamonds they're generally less serious so it doesn't count) and when that Fizz or Zed leaves his lane 9/2/5 there isn't really much that good play can do outside of maaaybe giving you a chance. (Unless you're equally fed as someone who isn't an ADC. Or you're fed as an ADC and have a reliable support or tank to peel for you.)

Me issue with Fizz's E is and always has been the fact that it lets him dodge almost anything in the game with no effort at all. It also allows him to tower dive almost risk-free since it breaks aggro and even if he's one tower hit away from death due to a fucked up dive, he just Es away and the tower projectile breaks. Vlad's pool has a similar problem but the issue with Fizz is that his is on a much lower cooldown and does much more damage while also allowing much more mobility (as well as wall hops in some places.)

Actually, i really wish they made his Q slightly possible to dodge. (That is, if you're outside a certain, reasonably generous range, the damage won't just go through regardless of whether it should have hit you or not.)

Exhaust does wreck him, though, I know that one from experience. xD

Also, if Zed has a BotRK during the lane-trading part of the game, you've got a whole other problem on your hands. Either that or it's literally the only item he has.

[DemonOfWrath]

Hey I'm generally at the same level, and it's only about now I'm starting to see other people who actually know what the hell they're doing (my comments about low elo games are from shaking rust off which have to be blind pick games). And honestly, anything leaving lane with that kind of score is going to dominate a game (had a few games ago where a Jinx did it and just crushed the game, I can do it pretty regularly on Irelia), unless it's like a Janna. It's just the fed assassin delivers the damage quicker, and anything that fed is going to kill anyone unless it's an equally fed tank (from experience I can definitely say being a tank does not help if you're one or two items behind their damage dealers, you just die a bit slower than everyone else).

Personally I don't see Fizz E as that big a problem. It's annoying, but every assassin has some form of mobility or slipperiness due to the squishy factor. Zed/Leblanc has shadows/distortions, Ahri has 3 dashes, Kat has shunpo, Kha'zix has jumps, ect. Fizz actually has less mobility than a lot of other assassins funnily enough, it's just his can disjoint attacks. Being able to break tower aggro is annoying sure but like you said he's not the only one who can (Elise has practically the same mechanic as Fizz). Just don't stick under the tower if you're in Fizz kill range, but that's more general advice since heaps of stuff is good at diving. Top lane example of Renekton, if you're low he's just going to dive you with 2 dashes and the hp from ult and you're going to die.

Ok, I say Bork as the finished item, but cutlass during lane is generally going to be a thing and that's where the lifesteal comes from.

[UXLZ]

Hey I'm generally at the same level, and it's only about now I'm starting to see other people who actually know what the hell they're doing (my comments about low elo games are from shaking rust off which have to be blind pick games). And honestly, anything leaving lane with that kind of score is going to dominate a game (had a few games ago where a Jinx did it and just crushed the game, I can do it pretty regularly on Irelia), unless it's like a Janna. It's just the fed assassin delivers the damage quicker, and anything that fed is going to kill anyone unless it's an equally fed tank (from experience I can definitely say being a tank does not help if you're one or two items behind their damage dealers, you just die a bit slower than everyone else).

Personally I don't see Fizz E as that big a problem. It's annoying, but every assassin has some form of mobility or slipperiness due to the squishy factor. Zed/Leblanc has shadows/distortions, Ahri has 3 dashes, Kat has shunpo, Kha'zix has jumps, ect. Fizz actually has less mobility than a lot of other assassins funnily enough, it's just his can disjoint attacks. Being able to break tower aggro is annoying sure but like you said he's not the only one who can (Elise has practically the same mechanic as Fizz). Just don't stick under the tower if you're in Fizz kill range, but that's more general advice since heaps of stuff is good at diving. Top lane example of Renekton, if you're low he's just going to dive you with 2 dashes and the hp from ult and you're going to die.

Ok, I say Bork as the finished item, but cutlass during lane is generally going to be a thing and that's where the lifesteal comes from.

Irelia tends to have this massive spike in power where she can basically 1v3 where she's insanely tanky and melts people as well, and then drops off over time quite quickly. At least that's what it's like from experience playing against her.

The problem I have with Fizz's E though, is that with the mobility spells the other champs have you can say 'Yeah, I deserved that' when the Kat shunpos out of the way of your obvious Ez ult and I support Fizz being able to do that as well, but the weakness those champions have is that they're vulnerable to targeted abilities and tower shots since they aren't broken by their mobility spells. If you Veigar ult a Kat she can shunpo all she wants but she won't escape it. Fizz just goes 'lolnope E.'
Actually, I think that's my biggest gripe with it, the projectile breaking. I'm fine with the untargetable, I'm fine with it dodging skillshots, but the projectile breaking is just obnoxious. Especially for tower shots. 
I think I'd be fine with it if it:
Still made him untargetable.
Still made skillshots pass through him.
but
Didn't break tower aggro or projectiles.

Most ADs get lifesteal. Tryndamere is particularly obnoxious. Remember though, that was purely a base stat comparison.

[DemonOfWrath]

What's so different between the Kat shunpoing an Ez ult and Fizz E'ing a Veigar ult? In both cases if you throw it out while they have their escape up then the response is "Yeah, I deserved that.". If Fizz has his E up, just don't throw the big spell expecting it to hit, bait it out as if you're throwing a skillshot rather than a point-and-click. For a good comparison, are you going to Veigar ult a Yasuo with wind wall still up? I do think that you're focusing too much on what it can do that other stuff can't, rather than taking that and thinking how you should be getting around it.

The Irelia was just an example since that's the champ I go rediculous on the most, but my point stands that most things do go nuts if they get really ahead so taking that as a complaint against a specific champ is kinda silly imo.

And true, that was a base stat comparison you did, but just taking those alone isn't necessarily indicative of the overall picture. Like yeah, Zed and Fizz are basically as squishy, but Zed due to item builds has a lot more sustain and staying power than Fizz so in situations where they aren't 100->0'd Fizz is 'squishier' because he has to back off a lot harder than Zed has to.

[Jiokuy]

I find that comparison to be naturally illogical, UXLZ's problem with Fizz's E is that it blocks all attacks, including skillshots like Ezreal's ult, and point and click like Veigar's ult. Plus Kat needs to have a target to shumpo to, and Zed has to use his damage amplification ability to move like that (and zed/kat will still get Taric stunned).

EDIT: and BTW BOTRK is 9/10 jack squat for sustain on zed, outside of some corner cases late game and some fights vs bruisers. Elixir of Wrath However makes a very good case for high sustain Zed's. (9oh and the active, that heals nicely)

[Flying Dice]

How to play vs. assassins after lane phase:

1. Wards.
2. Positioning.

That's literally it. Maybe build QSS or GA if they're fed and you're a carry. If you've got poke in your comp, focus on the assassin. If you're squishy and high-value, don't go near the front or places where you don't have vision. If you're a tank/bruiser/tanky support, stay the fuck where you're supposed to be: in between your squishies and the enemy carries.

It also helps to play assassins enough to understand the mindset and recognize situations where they can go in, so that you can react as soon as they do. Know how champions work -- in the case of Fizz especially, make sure that whoever on your team is most tanky will be in position to eat his ult away from everyone else. Don't let your squishies get close enough for him to Q them; force him to burn his E to get into range. As soon as he loses his invinc frames, CC him and blow him up (just like any other assassin).

The only reason an assassin will ever be able to pick someone off from a grouped enemy team before a fight starts is if they don't know how to position. Even half-decent positioning will force them to wait for someone else to engage before they go in, which leads to another way to counter assassins: don't let their team engage on you. If you've got an engage comp, go on them -- either they'll blow their burst on your frontline, or it'll be delayed while they try to reach your backline. But given UXLZ's statements about Ezreal's E, I'm not certain whether he'll actually get the point about how important positioning is.

If you've really got trouble dealing with Playful/Trickster (or Vlad's trollpool), here's what I suggest (and what I did): Play the champion. That's the best way to get a firm grasp on the limitations of any ability, in regards to range, cooldown, &c. One of the best things that ever happened to me was getting a mirror-match in a normal right after I bought Fizz, taught me a damn lot about how he works. Incidentally, now that so much of his Q and W damage has been nerfed, Playful/Trickster is pretty much going to be required for Fizz to get off a good burst now, so that's forcing players to use it to engage rather than to get out after engaging.

[Sharp]

Tbh Fizz's E could do with a longer CD. However with the nerf to his damage it's not so important.