Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Frumple]

Shredder's represented too, but neither of those are ninja turtles. And only shredder is near as close a character design.

E: Still, getting close. Bebop and a Rocksteady and we'd have a full team.

[Sharp]

Does Ninja Rammus count? I'm sure LoL will add in a Pig champion and a Rhino champion sometime.

[Flying Dice]

Wait a minute. We've got Ahri and (by way of Quinn) Valor, all we need now are a donkey champ and a toad/frog champ.

[Frumple]

... star fox? E: Wait, no, peppy is a hare nevermind

[IronyOwl]

donkey

ಠ_ಠ

We've got a couple skins for the not-donkey aspect, but the only toad I can think of is a metaphor for Akali. Some pro was mentioned to have described her as a tadpole, since her early game is so weak, but then once you hit six you can start hopping around everywhere. Also she's green.

[Sharp]

Bleugh Shyvana jungle should not have feral flare....

Shyvana is supposed to just be a tank, her kit isn't good for auto-attacking shit

[frostshotgg]

And yet you think it's fine on Xin?

[Arcvasti]

And yet you think it's fine on Xin?

Xin is auto-attack based, isn't he? He has an Attack Speed buff, a heal every 3 hits thing and a knock-up every 3 empowered hits thing. Those would seem to encourage him to hit things with his spear a lot. While Shyvana gains some benefits from hitting things, I'm not sure she relies on them enough to need an auto-attack based item like Feral Flare. I've heard Xin described as an tank who needs a bit of Attack Speed to deal damage. Feral Flare seems like it'd synergize well with that, being an item made to help junglers who auto-attack a lot[EX: Yi, Udyr, Nocturne]. Shyvana relies much less on auto-attacks then he does, and might be better off with one of the Spirit's[Not quite sure which one, maybe Ancient Golem?]. My 2 cents on Xin's preferred jungle item.

[Sharp]

Until Shyvana gets BotRK she can't really auto-attack champs because she has no CC, Xin has a slow, an AS steroid and a knock-up allowing him to do many auto-attacks where shyvana might only get 1 or 2 auto attacks off. Shyvana though is an incredibly tanky champ and has a lot of AoE damage once she has her ult which makes her great for tower diving.

That being said if you can get an early advantage and get a BotRK quickly then Feral Flare can work as she has quick clear times on camps but I would much prefer to be safe and get more tanky for tower dives because Shyvana is horrible at ganking pre-6 and not great after 6, only really good at tower dives.

I don't know how you can think Feral Flare is not best choice on Xin though, it has great synergy and plays into Xin's strength of healing from autoattacks as well as getting knockup from Q done quickly. Xin doesn't need the Elder Lizard or Ancient Golem spirit stones if he has Mandreds/Wriggles because he doesn't need to use his abilities to clear camps so he will still have full mana and health coming out of jungle and the AS burns through towers so quickly. Still you and Flying Dice seem to be the exception as everyone is going Feral Flare Xin.

[Flying Dice]

donkey

ಠ_ಠ

Okay, I could have just been blunt and called him an obnoxious jackass. 


re: patch:

Champion buffs all around. Rumble buffs. A nerf to Wriggles that I'm happy to see; it doesn't reduce the power of FF but does make it take longer to obtain. Me likey.

Still you and Flying Dice seem to be the exception as everyone is going Feral Flare Xin.

Eh? When did I ever say that? All of my arguments have been that Flare is really, really good on AA-reliant junglers. I love the bloody thing.

[Putnam]

How many junglers are there? The idea of potentially having one every game weirds me out (not a bad thing, just... not what I'm used to). Dota has, like, 7 heroes off the top of my head that jungle often (Nature's Prophet/Furion, Chen, Enchantress, Bloodseeker, Enigma, Legion Commander, Meepo) (though Meepo does two lanes and jungles simultaneously whenever possible, so he doesn't really count as a jungler) and most of those are because they have multiple units under their control that can take hits for them (Bloodseeker and Legion Commander mostly because they have good heals on creep hit/kill; I think Lifestealer might do jungle too, actually, but I haven't played Lifestealer any).

Off-tangent: What exactly makes a jungler a jungler here? What do junglers usually have in common that makes them suited for that?

Also, how could I go about having a good chance of not getting the same hero twice in 6 games? I've been getting into Dota (still not there yet, haven't even played 100 games!) by randoming every game and playing All Random or Ability Draft whenever possible, so is there any way of doing something similar here (for the trying, mostly)?

(If you can't tell, I am deeply curious about this stuff since people keep going into /r/dota2 talking about "meta" all the time which isn't really a thing in Dota... at least, not as LoL players seem to understand it)

[Stuebi]

Putnam, as someone playing both games, im not really sure I get it either. Jungling in Dota is the exception, not the rule, and as far as I understand it, in LoL Junglers are about clearing speed, a form of sustain, and ganking potential. To take Lee Sin as an example, his passive and Skillset are great for clearing camps fast, he has a gap closer, slow and a fitting ult for ganks, and his W is a decent sustain.

In Dota, noone really expects the jungler to gank all that often early-midgame. Usually its instead just a way for Heroes like Enigma / Furion and the like to get Gold without stealing it from a carry on lane. With Heroes like Lifestealer, they even expect you to full-on carry once you get out of the woods. In LoL, the jungler seems to be more of a dedicated Ganker, meant to take of the heat on difficult Lanes and keep the Enemy small where possible. But I'm not really that fantastic in theory-crafting, im sure someone can elaborate it further.

I jsut got back into LoL after having a multiple-month pause, and started my placement matches. Last season, I tried in vain to reach Gold, I managed Silver I but lacked the time to buff it up to Gold V before the season ended. Now im 5 matches in, with 3 losses, and allready not far away from wanting to gnaw my keyboard apart. I Played Yasuo whenever possible, since I like his playstyle and its fun laning with him, but I get the feeling that my impact in teamfights is too small most of the time. If the Enemy team doesnt grouphug like chickens, its really hard to land a square ult, and trying to convince people to play Wukong or Malph to go along is really difficult. (Added bonus, all my mates who played back when I was active are either inactive, or unmotivated for rankeds. Woohey.) People recommend that I should play something with a strong teamfight-improving ult or lots of AoE, but I have no idea what the current seasons' preffered picks are. I had some success in the past with Swain and Brand when it comes to mid lane, and Nasus/Renekton/Darius Top. I also seriously hope that my luck goes up with the other Rankeds. I dont want to work my way up from the hell that is Silver 4/3 to Silver 1 and eventually Gold.

[Flying Dice]

In response to Putnam:

There are a couple different breakdowns, between farm junglers vs. gank junglers (the latter have been in-meta for a while), between junglers with a high-impact early game (Lee Sin, Pantheon, etc.) who gank early and often to snowball their laners vs. junglers who scale into lategame, and so forth.

I'm by no means an expert, but I'll do my best, specifically in regards to what's the popular meta right now. The general idea behind most of the popular junglers is that they can come out of the jungle as early as level 3 (the first two buffs and a minor camp), and that they're supposed to apply pressure, either to snowball a lane or to ease pressure from a lane that's tilting against their team. The exact mechanics vary from champion to champion, but there are various goals: killing enemy laners, forcing enemy laners to back, burning their summoner spells, counterganking, and covering lanes when people are forced to back at inopportune times are some of the most important.

A good jungler has to consider the consequences of their actions; is it more important that they get a kill or that their laner does; is it worth risking a death to tower-dive an enemy laner; is the risk of counter-jungling worth the benefit of denying the enemy jungler their farm/stealing buffs, &c. There's also something of an unstated element: putting one player in the jungle not only brings the benefits of ganking, but also means that both top and mid lanes get their full lane exp and cs, which is more valuable than the increased pressure in a single lane. There's also a fairly substantial degree of mindgaming inherent with the dynamic of both teams having a player whose position is typically unknown; is my enemy taking an aggressive posture in lane because they've got a gank coming, are they backing off to try to pull me farther towards their tower for a gank, how can I trick the enemy into a vulnerable position for my jungler, do they have that brush warded, is that Thresh lantern in the brush a ruse or just a really obvious gank, &c.?

Later in the game the jungler shifts roles; they start acting as whatever they've built as, typically either an assassin like Kha'Zix and Yi, or something on the fighter-tank gamut like Jarvan IV and Vi. They've also got an important role in terms of objectives; the summoner spell Smite is the most reliable way of securing kills on the Dragon and Baron, both defensively for a team looking to finish without losing it, and for a gutsy jungler trying to steal it.

But yes, the common factors between pretty much all viable jungle-worthy champions are as Stuebi said: Sustain, clearspeed, and gank potential. The last is probably the most important in the current meta, and also translates well into lategame. A lot of the current in-meta junglers have a similar feature in that the vast majority have high-impact CC/displacement and/or a gapcloser combined with good burst damage.

[Putnam]

You're using the word meta in a way that I'm... not familiar with. What exactly does meta mean here? It seems... concrete.

[Sharp]

Still you and Flying Dice seem to be the exception as everyone is going Feral Flare Xin.

Eh? When did I ever say that? All of my arguments have been that Flare is really, really good on AA-reliant junglers. I love the bloody thing.

Again, I'm with frostshot on this one. The high-damage junglers that are in-meta right now are by and large frequent gankers, who get very little benefit from FF (compared to EL). If you build towards FF and then spend all your time ganking, you're massively suboptimal because the gold bonus rewards farming, not occasionally popping big monsters, as well as because of the lack of EL's passive. If you build FF on a champ who needs to make an early impact and then spend all/most of your time farming, you're massively suboptimal. :/

Granted I'm inferring more from your agreement with frostshot rather then you explicitly saying but to think that building Mandred's/Wriggles on Xin means the Xin won't be ganking is silly. To think that Elder Lizard would do more damage you also have to realise that Elder Lizard is more expensive and other then mana/health sustain in jungle the Spirit Stone is actually useless in ganks unlike Mandred's which can help with sustain in jungle as well as the slight AS bonus when ganking.

I don't know if needing 5 more stacks is going to be too much of a nerf.

You're using the word meta in a way that I'm... not familiar with. What exactly does meta mean here? It seems... concrete.

Meta for LoL pretty much means popular, it's usually deemed to be the most effective strategy for winning the game but it's not true, it is what the masses of players will generally play though. Meta can range from positions of players (e.g. 1 top, 1 mid, 2 bot, 1 jungler) to champion pool of those roles to even the item build order of the champions