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[frostshotgg]

It wasn't used because of a double whammy of the stats on it sucked balls (Attack speed and armor? seriously?) and because it was a dead end item. You had to kill well over a hundred jungle creeps just to get it to pay for itself, because you couldn't keep it like other jungle items because the stats were so irrelevant.

Farming 25 large monsters takes long enough to allow the enemy jungler time to set the tempo of the game and get pretty fed.

[Flying Dice]

That. Most of the in-meta junglers will start ganking at around 3:30-4:00. From what I've seen and heard, Flare usually takes a bit longer to get than a complete spiritstone item. That's more than enough time for an early-power jungler to snowball a lane or two. To boot, once you've got FF... you're still not as effective as the Lizard Elder jungler, because the stats are directed more for dueling and teamfighting than ganking, and you still need to be farming those stacks to make it more effective. Even if you jump out of jungle as soon as you've got FF, against any decent jungler you'll be trying to gank for losing lanes against an enemy jungler who can gank and countergank more effectively to you.

Buying it is essentially a calculated gamble that the enemy jungler sucks/your team is good enough to survive the lane phase without ganks. :|


ALSO:

Ultra Rapid Fire will come back in one form or another

YUS

[Person]

I've been running swain in urf. It turns out that his ult has an escalating mana cost for a reason normally. (Insert always heal never die jokes here.) Pre-6 is harsh though. Gotta build more tank items than usual though I find.

[frostshotgg]

There's a reason you should always take ignite against Swain, even when he's restricted by mana. He absolutely will not die without reduced healing.

[Person]

Thing is, no one in any of the games I've ever played has taken ignite, other than one person on my team once. Everyone else seems to have teleport as mandatory, and then maybe flash/ghost/barrier as their other spell. Ignite is everywhere in my normals though, yeah.

[Flying Dice]

Yeah, teleport/flash was standard in URF (after revive was removed, anyways) because mobility is king, and URF gave plenty of champions enough power to grind someone like an ulting Swain down.

[Skyrunner]

I should try Feral Flare poppy

[Flying Dice]

Huh, I could see that working--it'd substitute fairy well for BoTRK; the loss of the passive would hurt, but given Poppy's lategame power, FF would synergize better overall.


On an unrelated note, I've been testing it with Yi, which brought me to an interesting point: Yi is already a sticky jungler, between Highlander, Ghost, and Alpha Strike, so he's not hurt overmuch by losing the Lizard passive, and overall FF gives him more of what he loves. I actually used to run him without a jungle item, going very high-pressure (start ganking at level 3, never let up, go full ham), but now I'm building for FF instead of Hydra, which lets me get to full build much faster, which in turn is crucial because I build 100% crit on him. It's some really beautiful synergy for Yi, both in terms of stats, because he doesn't need EL to gank, and because the heal meshed with his kit means that there are zero sustain issues, period.

[Skyrunner]

I don't have BotRK in my Poppy build.
For jungle I went SotEL, Triforce, Hydra, then defensive items, but I am considering swapping Feral flare in. The problem is I'll lose the very needed jungle sustain from Spirit.

Also, I have yet to play support poppy seriously

[Sharp]

Mandred's/Wriggles has decent sustain as long as you don't use abilities in the jungle for Poppy.

Also I think you guys are over-hyping the power of Spirit Stones. Mandred's Razor and Wriggles are very useful and fairly cheap. On AS dependant junglers like Xin/Udyr/Trynd it's much better then any of the spirits, it's even a decent item on Vi and I think it makes Vi viable again going more AS heavy then AD to get those Denting Blows off and then getting the AS buff, also with the long CD on her ult it gives a lot of time to farm the jungle until it's back up again and can easy gank someone.

Wriggle's is cheaper then Spirit of Elder Lizard and the AS bonus and ward comes in very handy, and if timed right you can put out Wriggles ward and then upgrade to Feral Flare and put out a Feral Flare ward giving you an extra free ward just to make it an even more gold efficient item. Elder Lizard gives you more attack damage and 10% CDR while Wriggles gives you AD + AS + ward and Feral Flare scales as the game goes on unlike Spirit Stones which are normally sold in late late game.

To get full benefit quickly out of Wriggles you do have to jungle a lot more but it doesn't make you less threatening on ganks at all.
 

[frostshotgg]

Building pure damage items on Xin/Udyr/Vi/etc is incorrect. Period.
Particularly damage items that

• Don't bring additional utility on junglers that need it
• Require farming instead of ganking on primarily ganking junglers
• Restricts the one item that can make any jungler's mana infinite
• Gives damage that you have to attack to benefit from
• Gives damage that doesn't improve abilities at all

I'm sure I forgot a few. But Wriggles/Flare is NOT an item to build on champs like them.

[Sharp]

Yes attack speed is useless for Xin/Udyr/Vi. Should get Elder Lizard instead because that isn't pure damage.

[frostshotgg]

Correct. Sarcasm only works if what you're saying isn't true.

[Flying Dice]

Again, I'm with frostshot on this one. The high-damage junglers that are in-meta right now are by and large frequent gankers, who get very little benefit from FF (compared to EL). If you build towards FF and then spend all your time ganking, you're massively suboptimal because the gold bonus rewards farming, not occasionally popping big monsters, as well as because of the lack of EL's passive. If you build FF on a champ who needs to make an early impact and then spend all/most of your time farming, you're massively suboptimal. :/

I don't have BotRK in my Poppy build.
For jungle I went SotEL, Triforce, Hydra, then defensive items, but I am considering swapping Feral flare in. The problem is I'll lose the very needed jungle sustain from Spirit.

Also, I have yet to play support poppy seriously

The Flare line is really good for sustain if you have any attack speed at all, both because of the health gain and because the health gain negates much of the need for using abilities to farm. Poppy is one of the ones that gets a better deal from it, too, because of her W stacking. It's questionable whether it'd be better than EL overall, though, because with your abilities on CD it can be sorta hard to stick prior to getting your triforce items.

[Putnam]

Okay I'm not regretting posting here. I always love reading about MOBA metagame.