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[Arcvasti]

The real question is, is it SLOT efficient? Sure the passive magic damage and super long ranged wards are neat, but does it give you more value then another item you could have in its place? If not, then I think that's enough of a disadvantage to balance its cheap stats out. My mildly uninformed 2 gold pieces on the matter.

[Sharp]

If you have an auto-attack dependant jungler (trynd/xin/rengar/udyr) then I think Feral Flare is pretty awesome, The Feral Flare bonus damage stacks don't stack before you get the item but the upgrading from Wriggles to Feral Flare of killing 25 monsters does stack before you even buy Wriggles so you don't need to rush it, however because Feral Flare's emphasis on jungling with bonus gold and more damage after killing large monsters then it's probably better just to rush Wriggles to get the stacks up ASAP.

It makes some late game junglers very very scary, Udyr with 100 stacks of Feral Flare will be getting 110 health per auto-attack and be dealing 133 magic damage per auto attack so much better then a stacked bloodthirster, and afaik there isn't a cap on stacks, so team turtle comp can go crazy late game.

Honestly the item looks so good that I would be tempted to go twitch jungle with it, maybe on some normals I will. I will definitely be doing some Sion jungling with it though so beware ranked (friendlies and enemies).

[Jopax]

Well, since it's a jungle item, it's competing with the jungle items, so Elder golem, Elder lizard and Elder wraith. Now, EW is not in direct competition since it's geared for AP junglers and Wriggle is mainly for guys who autoattack, so directly against EL and to a lesser extent EG since I consider that situational on most junglers I play and go for EL whenever I can.

EL offers more stats and offers most of them upfront so it's better for early game, but wriggle evens out in the lategame in stats but has the ward on top of it all. So I'd say it's a better pick for certain champs, especially if the mana regen is wasted on you and you do more autoattacking than poking.

But the bottom line is that it depends on the team, the champ and the situation. Which wasn't the case before since Wriggle was a downright worse choice for the most part and didn't really get taken from what I've seen. Now it's competitive and that's a pretty good thing.

E: And a wild ninja appears

E.2 :

Also you only gain stacks from large monsters, not small ones, otherwise it would snowball way too easily.

[Flying Dice]

I can see it being very, very good for AA-based junglers because that health gain on hit isn't lifesteal, which means that it isn't affected by anything. You hit something, you get X amount of health, period. With enough stacks it should outperform any lifesteal item in the game, at least in terms of health gained. The biggest issue with the Flare as a whole is that in order for it to become effective, your jungler is going to be spending a lot of the early game farming. In NA/EU meta (at least; IIRC Korean meta is different) right now, the high-impact junglers are the norm right now, so you could run into trouble if you're playing against someone who can successfully gank early.

We're done with that discussion, mate.

What, because you can't manage to have a civil discussion? If you don't want to respond to it, you don't have to, but I don't see how anything I said was inflammatory or preventing the discussion from "cooling down." I'm sure you not the only one who wonders why nerfs seem targeted at champion aspects that don't seem to need nerfs.

Guy. When Toady tells us to stop a discussion, that's the end of it. I'm not going to respond about this any more. I might not agree that it was getting that bad, but someone was mad enough about it to report it, so that's that.

[Cthulufaic]

I can see it being very, very good for AA-based junglers because that health gain on hit isn't lifesteal, which means that it isn't affected by anything. You hit something, you get X amount of health, period. With enough stacks it should outperform any lifesteal item in the game, at least in terms of health gained.

So would it be good for a jungle Kayle?  I tried to jungle Kayle last patch and it actually didn't turn out that bad.  Her E is the main thing I'm asking about though, considering it just gives her a ranged autoattack with AoE.

[Flying Dice]

I can see it being very, very good for AA-based junglers because that health gain on hit isn't lifesteal, which means that it isn't affected by anything. You hit something, you get X amount of health, period. With enough stacks it should outperform any lifesteal item in the game, at least in terms of health gained.

So would it be good for a jungle Kayle?  I tried to jungle Kayle last patch and it actually didn't turn out that bad.  Her E is the main thing I'm asking about though, considering it just gives her a ranged autoattack with AoE.

I haven't tested it with Kayle, but I could see it working; Kayle needs Lizard Elder much less than other damage-oriented junglers because she's already quite good at chasing and sticking, and the Q nerf means that more of her damage is going to come from E + AAs anyways. There's a good deal of synergy with her E in Flare. I'm actually sort of interested now in trying a Kayle build like that.

[Cthulufaic]

I can see it being very, very good for AA-based junglers because that health gain on hit isn't lifesteal, which means that it isn't affected by anything. You hit something, you get X amount of health, period. With enough stacks it should outperform any lifesteal item in the game, at least in terms of health gained.

So would it be good for a jungle Kayle?  I tried to jungle Kayle last patch and it actually didn't turn out that bad.  Her E is the main thing I'm asking about though, considering it just gives her a ranged autoattack with AoE.

I haven't tested it with Kayle, but I could see it working; Kayle needs Lizard Elder much less than other damage-oriented junglers because she's already quite good at chasing and sticking, and the Q nerf means that more of her damage is going to come from E + AAs anyways. There's a good deal of synergy with her E in Flare. I'm actually sort of interested now in trying a Kayle build like that.

Yeah, I usually get that after building Sheen for my Nashor's.  I do have a thought though, since Kayle is a melee champion, does Hydra's work while she has her E up?

[The Scout]

I can see it being very, very good for AA-based junglers because that health gain on hit isn't lifesteal, which means that it isn't affected by anything. You hit something, you get X amount of health, period. With enough stacks it should outperform any lifesteal item in the game, at least in terms of health gained.

So would it be good for a jungle Kayle?  I tried to jungle Kayle last patch and it actually didn't turn out that bad.  Her E is the main thing I'm asking about though, considering it just gives her a ranged autoattack with AoE.

I haven't tested it with Kayle, but I could see it working; Kayle needs Lizard Elder much less than other damage-oriented junglers because she's already quite good at chasing and sticking, and the Q nerf means that more of her damage is going to come from E + AAs anyways. There's a good deal of synergy with her E in Flare. I'm actually sort of interested now in trying a Kayle build like that.

Yeah, I usually get that after building Sheen for my Nashor's.  I do have a thought though, since Kayle is a melee champion, does Hydra's work while she has her E up?

I'm going to say no, because Hydra doesn't work on Jayce when he turns ranged. Though I doubt Hurricane works with her E either.

[Sharp]

For kayle Runaan's Hurricane does work when she has E and Ravenous Hydra does work when E is not on. I dunno if I would want Feral Flare on Kayle though, she does do a lot of auto-attacks but most of her power comes from the splash and she does use a lot of mana so I would probably go for Spectral Wraith on jungle Kayle.

The health you get on hit from the item though is great, lifesteal only works on damage dealt after armour reduction but Doran's and Feral Flare give fixed health on auto-attack. Makes Xin have super sustain but Udyr is even stupider, I think Riot might nerf it down a little bit especially as it's an absolute monster for taking down dragon and baron.

[Flying Dice]

Uh... You do realize that the splash damage is less than the direct damage, right? Direct is AD + 20/30/40/50/60 + 40%AP, splash is 20/30/40/50/60 + 40%AP + 20/25/30/35/40% AD. The splash is only relevant for waveclear and teamfighting, and even then the Flare would still give you a big boost to your single-target damage alongside the damage, and the healing is pretty darned good. My point is that if you're playing Kayle in the jungle, the Flare is going to be better than Lizard Elder flat out, and probably better than Spectral Wraith as well.

A max-stack Spectral Wraith adds 20 magic damage to your E-empowered autoattacks (or 32 damage with max stacks , plus an additional 9.6 damage if you have a deathcap). A Flare gives you 15 + 33 mixed damage on E-empowered AAs with no stacks and has no cap on stacks, and the AD scales better for the Q than AP would. Additionally, the other stats are important: Wraith gives you 10% CDR, but Flare gives you 35% AS. The Flare is practically built for Kayle, it gives her a ton of things she loves: AS, AD, on-hit damage, on-hit healing. For a jungler, the gold gain is also better because it isn't capped like Conservation is, and the long-range ward is icing.

I don't think that there are many champions that would do better with Flare than Wraith or Lizard, but Kayle is one of them. Maybe back when the Q was a more important part of your single-target damage I would have seen it differently, but as it is, for jungle Kayle, Flare looks very nice.

[Sharp]

Fair enough I don't really go jungle Kayle, my thinking is that she is pretty mana hungry and Feral Flame doesn't help get mana so although it's nice for later game if I was up against a Kayle who I see going for Feral Flame I would be counter-jungling a bit to try and catch Kayle without mana.

That being said I think as a jungler going heavy AP works better on Kayle then AS because although AS is nice for clearing camps when going for ganks I would prefer to have the nice heal and MS of W to get better positioning then trying to do more damage with E but I much prefer going Xin jungle instead anyway. This item is really strong on Trynd jungle as well, Feral Flare + Randuin's gives so much hurt to enemy.

[Flying Dice]

Yeah, jungle Kayle isn't my own thing either, but the Flare looks good enough that I might try it out. I can see it working on Yi, maybe, but I already have a build I like for him and he's a risky pick to begin with. :/

[frostshotgg]

The real question is, is it SLOT efficient? Sure the passive magic damage and super long ranged wards are neat, but does it give you more value then another item you could have in its place? If not, then I think that's enough of a disadvantage to balance its cheap stats out. My mildly uninformed 2 gold pieces on the matter.

Given that it's 1650 for what is functionally 48 AD and actively rewards you for farming, what with the +30% gold and giving 1 AD for every large monster, kill, or assist, absolutely. After you have some time, just going off the break even point with Aegis, it's worth 4340 gold. By far the most gold in an AD item in the game, narrowly beating out a fully stacked Bloodthirster. And that's without counting the value of the healing, which is insane come lategame.

It makes some late game junglers very very scary, Udyr with 100 stacks of Feral Flare will be getting 110 health per auto-attack and be dealing 133 magic damage per auto attack so much better then a stacked bloodthirster, and afaik there isn't a cap on stacks, so team turtle comp can go crazy late game.

100 stacks isn't going to happen ever. Last game I farmed insanely hard for the entire game as well as got fed as hell and it was still only around 50 stacks.

[SalmonGod]

So my favorite in URF mode so far.... Evelynn.  Oh god.

[Flying Dice]

I really wish it'd stick around longer, if only because the meta is so radically different.

In spite of all the fun I have with Poppy and Hecarim, I've finally settled on Akali. It's like her normal play turned up to 11; pre-6 is an absolute nightmare even if you're laning with a bully to help you stay alive, but after that you can blow up anyone. It got to the point where I turned on the camera lock because I kept losing myself off the side of the screen and my thumb was busy spamming the Gunblade active. Though the most terrifying thing I've seen so far is a Fizz player who had good mechanics; there was one point in that game where he aced our entire team in a 1v5 without taking any damage.