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[Kansa]

It damages everything it hits

[DemonOfWrath]

It's definitely everything it hits, except a hit from the second shot does no damage. Like, I've played so much Lulu that people saying the minions protect you from her is really confusing. Practically half my Lulu laning (support btw) is just trying to get glitterlances in without hitting minions just so I don't steal CS while poking.

Actually one thing I want to say is reducing the base damage on her E basically doesn't hurt support Lulu much. Rank 1 is the same so the change just drops your damage by like 20 at level 8, 40 at 10 but after early levels (or rather, once your ADC gets a BF sword or something) the shield is far far better anyways than a bit of extra damage (that's reduced by MR) as it keeps the people who actually kill things alive longer.

[Flying Dice]

I'm sort of confused about that--I was saying that both Glitterlance and Plasma Fission are good in part because you can't avoid them by hugging minions. Anyone who argues that you can against a Vel'Koz hasn't played him (or played against him) enough, because a big part of the beauty of Plasma Fission is that if you're good at working angles you can hit the enemy laner regardless of where they are. If they're literally somehow surrounded on all sides by minions, then you get a free E + W combo instead of Q poke.

Again, maybe it's just me, but Vel'Koz's Q is absurdly easy to land, and once you have your Chalice you can pretty much fire it every time it's off CD without worrying about mana costs. If you're just firing Q straight at enemies, yer doin' it wrong. 

As for the whole debate about Lulu--yeah, I'm done. The really funny part, though, is that I neither own her nor really enjoy playing her much. But yes, now that I've made my points clear enough that I can't be strawmanned, I suppose the fun is gone.

[Toady One]

I'd appreciate it if this thread cooled down a bit.

[Sinistar]

Sooooooo...what do you gals/guys think about Twitch rework?

Personally, I'm gonna miss the fat, stinky bastard. This new "crazy-badass-comical" wannabe just doesn't do it for me.

_{still better than Trundle rework though}

[frostshotgg]

I really hated Twitch's rework, it really killed his ability to jungle. Not to mention his damage got severely - Oh. You meant his visual thing. I kinda like it, League could use more comical characters and fewer "im bein super serial guise why wont anybody take me seriously" dudes.

[Sinistar]

Yeah, I should have said I mean his visual rework.

I agree, more comical is good, more wannabe badass is bad.

I just have this issue with Riot that lately their "comical" is just "hey-look-at-me-i'm-funny" trying to hard type of comical...but that's just me being humorless, nagging old man. 

Let's see how the New Plague Rat turns out.

[Jopax]

So, speaking of reworks, any thoughts on Rengar?

Sure you can't just double Q carries and towers anymore but he's still pretty scary. His E is kinda sucky now, since it's far too easy to just hide behind minions to dodge it, but I guess it's better for those jungle chases. Also the new bonetooth necklace is pretty awesome as a trinket, it might not be as powerful as before, but hey, it's not taking up any space whatsoever

Also, since I jiugled him I took Wriggle, whcih I usually sell after a while because the stats don't become as useful and keeping it for that one ward is not usually worth it imho. But now, after it upgrades, holy shit, it not only becomes a nice source of magic damage, but the range on the ward placement is freaking insane, you can easily ward the bush behind baron, while standing next to him :O

[ejseto]

In other words, nerfing E damage just reduces the risk for people all-inning a Lulu, rather than reducing the overpowered elements of her kit.

Here's the thing: they want champions to be overpowered in some ways. This creates differentiation/specialization among champions. What they don't want is champions that lack any counterplay. The problem with Lulu isn't that she has amazing harass. It's that she has amazing harass AND amazing survivability. How do you beat champions with amazing harass? Let's use top-lane Teemo as an example. Since the top-lane meta is filled with bruisers and tanks, Teemo naturally does well top. How do you beat a Teemo? You all-in him OVER AND OVER. You call for ganks. Or you simply survive until your team can beat his team in a team-fight because he offers nothing to a team-fight unless he already has shrooms strategically placed. Nerfing Lulu's ability to win an all-in (which is an indirect nerf to her survivability, and also makes the player less likely to take risks to harass) might not seem like a relevant nerf, but that's only if you believe that the nerfs should always be targeted at strengths. Nerfing Lulu's damage might just be the Kryptonite/Achilles' Heel she needs to be balanced AND interesting. After all, if they nerfed Superman's strength instead of giving him Kryptonite, he'd just be a dork in glasses.

[Flying Dice]

I'm in general agreement re: Twitch: the visual upgrade is nice, and I am sort of hesitant about the mechanical changes.

Re: Rengar: This is secondhand, but I've watched some play with new Rengar, and the E does have its upsides: longer range and damage that's actually pretty darned good. In other words, it's decent poke now, at least against someone that doesn't just stack tank items. The Q still serves as an AA reset for killing towers, which I suppose is nice, but can also drain his ferocity, which... isn't. Ofc. the bonetooth necklace is awesome now, considering that it's absolutely no risk for slightly less reward. I actually think that the changes to his ult might end up being good; you need your max bonetooth stacks for it to be anything like what it was before, but from the get-go it seems like a much better tool for escaping after making a kill, and once you get those stacks it's a great gapcloser as well.

Oh, and Jopax, did you happen to get a read on how much each kill/assist/big monster boosts the Flare's damage by? I'm curious to know how viable it is as a replacement for the Lizard Elder for aggressive junglers. I mean, obviously it's more lategame oriented given the stacking nature of it, but it also apparently pre-stacks while you're still on machete and Madreds.

-snip-

-snip-

I'd appreciate it if this thread cooled down a bit.

We're done with that discussion, mate.

[ejseto]

We're done with that discussion, mate.

What, because you can't manage to have a civil discussion? If you don't want to respond to it, you don't have to, but I don't see how anything I said was inflammatory or preventing the discussion from "cooling down." I'm sure you not the only one who wonders why nerfs seem targeted at champion aspects that don't seem to need nerfs.

[Jopax]

Don't think his Q procs towers now, which is rather sucky, but eh, you can always Q the minion next to it for the damage and AS boost.

Also the damage boost seems to be 3 magic damage per large monster kill or champion kill/assist, it starts off at 100 bonus damage per hit for monsters and a third of that for champs. So I think it's not too far off the LE item, but it has the added bonus of healing you on hit, which also increases with each kill/assist and monster kill.

Honestly, I find it more useful than the LE for the active only, having such stupid range on ward placement is incredibly useful trought the entire game, regardless of the other stats it might give.

[sebcool]

We're done with that discussion, mate.

What, because you can't manage to have a civil discussion? If you don't want to respond to it, you don't have to, but I don't see how anything I said was inflammatory or preventing the discussion from "cooling down." I'm sure you not the only one who wonders why nerfs seem targeted at champion aspects that don't seem to need nerfs.

It's not that it's inflammatory, it's actually a pretty valid argument. It might encourage people to keep arguing about it, though, and we really want this argument to stop, before it descends into a flamewar and thread-lock.

[Arcvasti]

We're done with that discussion, mate.

What, because you can't manage to have a civil discussion? If you don't want to respond to it, you don't have to, but I don't see how anything I said was inflammatory or preventing the discussion from "cooling down." I'm sure you not the only one who wonders why nerfs seem targeted at champion aspects that don't seem to need nerfs.

It's not that it's inflammatory, it's actually a pretty valid argument. It might encourage people to keep arguing about it, though, and we really want this argument to stop, before it descends into a flamewar and thread-lock.

^

[frostshotgg]

Feral Flare is really, really neat. Let's look at the gold efficiency real quick.

15 AD is worth 517 Gold (1 AD is worth 34.4g)
35% AS is worth 1050 gold (1% AS is worth 30g)
1567/1650 = 95% efficient

So on raw stats, it's just barely not worth the gold you pay for it, but let's look at that delicious, passive.

33 magic damage against champions ~ 33 AD = 1137g
2704/1650 = 164% efficient

Note: I didn't include the heal on hit, because while just as, if not more valuable than the actual damage, there's not exactly a gold value on that shit.

1 stealth ward for 3 minutes = 75g / 3min = 25g/min
Assuming 1 camp/min = 1 ad/min = 34 g/min
3.58% additional efficiency/min

As compared with Aegis of the Legion, (for all intents and purposes, the most gold efficient item in the game at 263%) Feral Flare becomes more efficient at 27.8 minutes after having it, which is not at all unbelievable.
 
Note: Some of my math got messed with because the wiki thinks gold efficiency is measured from the least efficient form of the base stat, not the most, so my numbers on Aegis of the Legion might be off because I can't be assed to go through and check every single item by hand to see what the gold efficiency is.