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[Sharp]

So I see Gragas as the new top lane bully with drunken rage getting some easy cheap poke quite frequently. Although Renekton slightly less stronger early, the increased scaling into late makes him more useful.

I think Gragas jungle will still be around but I feel Gragas top will be better as he can more easily control the lane with barrels.

[Flying Dice]

To be perfectly honest, though, Lulu didn't need this nerf; no matter how much they claim that they aren't trying to force champs into single roles, that's exactly what they're doing with those who are seen as being supports. Lulu's damage is entirely tied up in E + Q (unless you build machinegun), as is all of her in-lane harass. Yeah, it was easy to harass by E-ing off minions if you had mechanics down, but that's far less dangerous and annoying than a lot of other forms of mid poke.

Unrelated: Got Hecarim just for the sake of this week, and it's an absolute blast, especially because building tanky is really easy when everyone is playing an AP caster.

[Skyrunner]

Lulu is obnoxious mid. She hits like a truck, very frequently.

[frostshotgg]

If Lulu actually did something unique then I'd agree with you. As it is, she's one of a class of mages whose entire gimmick is use 1/2 skills to poke incredibly painfully and safely. If there was just Nidalee, then that'd be fine. If there was only Nidalee and Twisted Fate, that'd be okay but pushing it. As it is, the entire concept of "One skill to poke and that's all you get" is basically the bruiser of mages. There's far too many of them, and they're just not fun in any way, shape or form. They suck to play against, they never have those huge moments of "Wow I just played that really well", only "Oh cool I chunked them" or "Oh damn I missed. Now to wait for a 3 second cooldown so I can try again".

They aren't trying to force champs into single roles. They're trying to force roles into not being single champs, if that makes sense. The reason Lulu and Janna got nerfs when played mid is because they aren't NEW. If they're played, it's because they're the strongest poke/lane bully, not because their particular version of the poke was wanted. For example, Riot was totally fine with Zyra being played as a support, and even tuned her accordingly, rather than force her to only be a mid.

[penguinofhonor]

"This champ has been nerfed X times!" should never be an argument against nerfs. If a hypothetical champion gets nerfed thirty times in a row and is still overpowered, they're still overpowered and need nerfed.

I also love how when Riot tries to balance things quickly they get yelled at for being too heavy handed, but when they try to take it slow and nerf slightly over several patches, they hey yelled at for nerfing champions too many times.

[frostshotgg]

The confirmation bias is strong with this one. There is no "trying to keep supports in their place". You're operating from the perspective that Lulu gets nerfs because she's supposed to be a support, not because when played elsewhere she has absolutely 0 gameplay or interaction.

[Flying Dice]

See, I'd buy your argument if they were actually trying to change her mechanics so that her damage is dealt differently, but this was just a straight nerf to her damage and the window she has to deal it without changing the way she functions as an AP caster. There's clearly no effort to change Lulu's kit to reduce her blandness while leaving her as a viable mid pick, just a reduction to her ability to duel and poke effectively.


HOLY SHIIIIIIIIT RIOT

[frostshotgg]

Just because they're not actively forcing her to be a support doesn't mean they're going to cater to people who want to play her elsewhere. Lulu's mechanics and combos make sense in a 2v2 setting with low gold income. If they get stupid when that setting is changed, then she's going to get nerfed because seriously. Tell me when the last time you saw mid Lulu and thought "Oh boy oh boy I'm ready for a fun, interactive, and skillful laning phase!" Like whoever in the thread earlier said, they didn't get the chance to make sure Lulu was still balanced as a support, so if this winds up hitting her too hard there then they'll buff her in ways that won't make her stupid mid.

[Flying Dice]

Wait, wait.

"[Insert champion here] has mechanics that suit them for x and y types of lane. They're a bit too good in y lane, and their mechanics are kind of boring there, so let's remove a big chunk of [part of their kit suited for y lane] instead of tweaking them to be more interesting there without changing the style of their x play."

"That doesn't sound like you're trying to force them to stay in x lane at all, no sir."

[Jopax]

Oh god, I just realized that skin is TTGL stuff :O

It's freaking amazing, and I hate Rumble, oh man, now I'm torn between getting it and not getting it :C

[Flying Dice]

I know, right? I'm almost at the point of getting Rumble just so I can buy that skin, even though I have no desire whatsoever to play him.

[Sharp]

Meh idc, Lulu was op as hell when she was released with stupid powerful damage (base and ratios) and low mana cost on Q.

She is still a powerful laner now, the nerf hasn't stopped her being dangerous, she just can't do stupid long range safe poke anymore so easily. Her zoning power was stupid strong , still is really but now she can't zone for as long giving time for the opposing person to wait out that stupid Pix.

[Jopax]

I know, right? I'm almost at the point of getting Rumble just so I can buy that skin, even though I have no desire whatsoever to play him.

Exactly!

Then I'll play two games and stop, just like with most other champs I got skins for!


:C

[Flying Dice]

I know, right? I'm almost at the point of getting Rumble just so I can buy that skin, even though I have no desire whatsoever to play him.

Exactly!

Then I'll play two games and stop, just like with most other champs I got skins for!


:C

I dunno, the Lunar Goddess skin got me back into Diana in a big way. I'd stopped playing her for a good while but the hype train grabbed me and didn't let go.

[penguinofhonor]

Wait, wait.

"[Insert champion here] has mechanics that suit them for x and y types of lane. They're a bit too good in y lane, and their mechanics are kind of boring there, so let's remove a big chunk of [part of their kit suited for y lane] instead of tweaking them to be more interesting there without changing the style of their x play."

"That doesn't sound like you're trying to force them to stay in x lane at all, no sir."

I'm sure Riot would love to solve all problems like this with significant skill changes and gameplay tweaks, but putting rework effort into giving Lulu an additional lane is much lower priority than tons of other things right now.

There are currently champions with zero viable positions. They shouldn't delay fixing that so others can have two. If just numbers changes can make her a healthy and viable support without being toxic to the game elsewhere, it's probably the most efficient thing to do.