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[frostshotgg]

Well, from my experience, junglers have gotten huge nerfs every preseason. I don't know when they've been too powerful except for S1, since then they've been in or below line. It feels really bad to consistently get the short end of the stick. S1->2 felt justified, because junglers were overpowered, and it was pointlessly brutal. 2->3 felt like they had the right goal but just failed at it. But this doesn't even feel like it's in good spirit. It's an outright nerf to junglers to make them slower and get less xp, and even less gold than duo laners now, and a pretty fucking huge one, and it feels really, really shitty. Even more so when you realize that the role you've spent the last 3 years or so getting really good at is now completely irrelevant. Hopefully riot will realize what a huge fuckup the wight camp was and revert that at least.

[penguinofhonor]

They released a big patch with a lot of changes that's going to be very unstable balance-wise. Someone was going to get the short end of the stick. Remember people stacking Black Cleavers? The jungle sucking is Season 4's Black Cleaver.

I can understand some frustration, but your post is the sort of response I'd expect to see if Riot announced they were going to delete the jungle, not just nerf it. This isn't the end of the world.

[frostshotgg]

Except Black Cleaver was on the other end of the spectrum. Now junglers are so much less powerful than a 5th laner that there's no reason to have one. I'll still jungle in normals, but I can't in good faith jungle in ranked when I know that another duolaner is better. So in effect, they did delete the jungle.

[Skyrunner]

I'm pretty sure they'll fix it.

[webadict]

Except Black Cleaver was on the other end of the spectrum. Now junglers are so much less powerful than a 5th laner that there's no reason to have one. I'll still jungle in normals, but I can't in good faith jungle in ranked when I know that another duolaner is better. So in effect, they did delete the jungle.

I don't understand the issue. You're NOT going to jungle in rankeds even though you want to? Why not?

[frostshotgg]

Because ranked is for winning. If you do something you know is less than you could be doing to win, then you shouldn't be playing ranked. If I know that x thing is better than y, and they're mutually exclusive, why would I do y if it's detrimental?

[webadict]

Because ranked is for winning. If you do something you know is less than you could be doing to win, then you shouldn't be playing ranked. If I know that x thing is better than y, and they're mutually exclusive, why would I do y if it's detrimental?

Ranked isn't for winning. It's for testing your skills. You don't have to win to play ranked. You should probably try, but you don't need to do that either. I'll even give you an example:

I like to play Xerath. Not a lot of people do. In fact, I will first pick Xerath. I know that this is not the optimal situation. He's not the best pick. But, I like to play Xerath, and I play him well. I'll do this in ranked. I've played things for the first time in ranked. I've played crazy lanes in ranked. These do not mean that I am not trying. These do not mean I will lose. If that were the only point to ranked, I would have never played Ranked, because that's a horrible way to think about it, and it'd be unnecessarily stressful.

I consider Ranked to be a slightly more important normal game. So, I won't necessarily run Riven Renekton bot lane. But, I will never completely rule it out, just because it is unfavorable. I played Annie support in Ranked way before it was popular, even though I knew it wasn't the accepted style. Would that be considered detrimental? I have played duomid in Ranked. Would that be considered detrimental? I have played against and with duo jungle. Would that be considered detrimental?

Your view makes everything so black and white. That there is only one way to play and all others are inferior. It's stiflingly uncreative, so I can understand why you would think that you can't jungle in a Ranked game. I think that's the wrong attitude, but I see where you're coming from. But, I try to have fun while I play the game. If I didn't, I'd probably complain about Ranked trolls and how bad my [insert name of worst/second worst player in my game] was every game, and I would never have gotten any better at the game.

So, play 2/1/2. Play 1/1/2. Play 1/1/1. Play 1/2/2. Play 1/2/1. Play 1/1/3 if you want. Play them in Ranked. Sure, you should respect your team's opinion, but they should respect yours as well, and in the end, your decision is your decision. If I feel Mordekaiser would be a great addition to the game, I'll pick him. If I think we're better off without an ADc this game, I'll do that. Optimal? Probably not. But, am I trying to win? For sure.

[frostshotgg]

There are things that are grey like unusual picks, there are things that are questionable like trilanes, and there are things that are starkly there. You can't build AP on Riven. You would be really dumb to run 6 pairs of boots for items. There is not one single reason to have a jungler in the game right now. You get more total gold and exp with a duo, if you want ganks you can have one of your 4 duolaners go run off, if you want buff control then have top and bot keep track of their respective buffs. The only thing that's even questionable is dragon/baron control, but if you're really that worried then you can pick someone with a strong execute or true damage like Cho, Nunu, or Volibear.

[webadict]

There are things that are grey like unusual picks, there are things that are questionable like trilanes, and there are things that are starkly there. You can't build AP on Riven. You would be really dumb to run 6 pairs of boots for items. There is not one single reason to have a jungler in the game right now. You get more total gold and exp with a duo, if you want ganks you can have one of your 4 duolaners go run off, if you want buff control then have top and bot keep track of their respective buffs. The only thing that's even questionable is dragon/baron control, but if you're really that worried then you can pick someone with a strong execute or true damage like Cho, Nunu, or Volibear.

But, you just gave plenty of reasons to have a jungler right in there. You're delegating the whole role of jungler to a bunch of different people, and like it or not, you can't send a duo laner from top all the way to bot.

I don't even consider a jungler as a questionable pick. I think junglers just got nerfed a bit. Oh well. Play them or don't. That's just how the game works. I've seen junglers do just fine against duotop. I've seen duotop do just fine against junglers. If you like playing jungler, then play jungler. I really don't think that a jungler is anywhere near AP Riven.

[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

   Just to point out Frost, you didn't actually have a reason why you shouldn't have jungler beyond money and xp. You listed ways for others to take on a role from the jungler and then mentioned how you could fill the dragon/baron control gap left from not having a jungler but I don't think overall gold and xp is a good enough reason. Total gold and xp don't mean much even when higher then the enemies team if its not spread out correctly. I think as it is people will play around with not having a jungler and then it will settle back down into the old ways again even if the bot duo will more often have what have been up until now non-traditional supports.

Edit: oh and as a person who has done jungle Nunu, hearing that my opponents don't have a jungler just tells me I now have 2 jungles. I don't know how this would work out at higher skill levels but I know that when I first started and fighting it out with other newbs and no one on the other side had was a jungler that had me just roaming the whole dang map.

[M3hillus]

As a laner, Im loving the new camp. It balances the sides more or less. As a Jungler, Im still testing my routes and items, but we shall see.

[webadict]

As a laner, Im loving the new camp. It balances the sides more or less. As a Jungler, Im still testing my routes and items, but we shall see.

I'm enjoying the extra money as a support! Laughing all the way to the bank!

[frostshotgg]

So, Yasuo's wind wall... It's basically complete bullshit. It's going to take a long time after his release before I get the hang of waiting until he pops it to blow any important skills. It lasts 3.75 seconds and at rank 5 the cd is 18 seconds. I'm hesitant to say whether or not he as a whole will be strong or not on release, but if his W gets to live as-is, he'll be incredibly powerful. It's blitz Q level of kit-defining.

[Skyrunner]

Oh, you have a PBE account? That's neat.

[Frumple]

So, Yasuo's wind wall... It's basically complete bullshit. It's going to take a long time after his release before I get the hang of waiting until he pops it to blow any important skills. It lasts 3.75 seconds and at rank 5 the cd is 18 seconds. I'm hesitant to say whether or not he as a whole will be strong or not on release, but if his W gets to live as-is, he'll be incredibly powerful. It's blitz Q level of kit-defining.

Mm... so, what, 10 point something CD with full CDR? Looks like a potential around 1/3rd uptime, resource costs allowing? Real question t'me would be exactly what it blocks.