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[webadict]

Anyways, she's just as effective at killing people 1v1 as any other ADC is, and more effective at killing towers than most. Her W does proc on hits and a lifesteal, just only on the first hit.

If I were going to have someone split push, I'd prefer someone safer. Zed, TF, or Shen are much better, and very effective at killing towers as well (Well, Shen isn't that effective, but he is hard to stop, and can enter the fight much better.)

[penguinofhonor]

Man, I just played Draven for the first time since the new passive. It's so fun! It keeps your high score! That's so cool. It felt like I was actually playing a game instead of a sport-thing or whatever people treat League like now.

I know a lot of people are mad about it for being feast or famine or whatever, but I think we should focus on what's fun rather than what violates "game design principles". Games are an art, man. Art can't be distilled to a set of rules and labels. /soapbox

[frostshotgg]

Draven's new passive is neat, but its a really shitty version of Ashe's e. Id be upset if I were a Draven player.

[webadict]

Draven's new passive is neat, but its a really shitty version of Ashe's e. Id be upset if I were a Draven player.

What? I think you're trying to compare Draven's passive to TF's passive. Ashe's E has utility as well as her passive. And that's silly, since it's rather unique. It's not good, but it's still unique.

However, they're buffing his passive next patch:

Draven’s passive will now consume all stacks on kill to grant bonus gold, although the gold granted per stack has been reduced by 1. Additionally, Draven’s passive will grant at least 50 bonus gold per kill.

I find this change helpful, since getting only half stacks is just really unrewarding, since you'll never fully get the stacks that way. And 50 additional gold is fun.

[frostshotgg]

The problem is that right now it's 3 gold for every last hit and q caught, which would be quite a bit better than Ashe's E even accounting for the really lame vision thing it has, but he only actually gets it if he kills someone. That means he has no passive at all until someone dies. Particularly in games where his lane opponents play super safe because Draven still hits like a fucker, Draven won't be getting to cash in.

EDIT: In other news 3.11 patch notes are out and... It's really underwhelming. Nothing notable is changed.

[webadict]

The problem is that right now it's 3 gold for every last hit and q caught, which would be quite a bit better than Ashe's E even accounting for the really lame vision thing it has, but he only actually gets it if he kills someone. That means he has no passive at all until someone dies. Particularly in games where his lane opponents play super safe because Draven still hits like a fucker, Draven won't be getting to cash in.

EDIT: In other news 3.11 patch notes are out and... It's really underwhelming. Nothing notable is changed.

Well, technically, it was only 1.5 gold every hit/axe catch, if you're doing that.

[penguinofhonor]

Okay? When they gave Udyr the little hop on bear stance I wasn't like "Wahhh, other characters have way longer jumps than that!" I was happy for what it did to the champion and didn't give myself any reasons to be fake-angry about it based on things that don't affect me.

[frostshotgg]

That's a really, really bad comparison. While I understand what you're trying to say, and like I said before, I don't really care too much about Draven anything anyways, it's a completely different situation. Udyr got bearhop for free, he didn't lose anything for it. Draven lost one of the best passives in the game and got one of the worst. Draven mains are perfectly within their rights to whine, at least a little bit.

[Chaoswizkid]

Source

Statikk is the real guy to talk about this, but here's what I've gleaned from talking him to about this:

Draven's laning phase is stupid OP, but his late game is pretty rough. Spinning Axe is really fun and awesome and we always want that to feel good. However, the extra damage he's getting from the bleed is fairly underappreciated and doesn't really scale all that great into the lategame. We looked at the numbers and said two things:

1. We don't want to touch Spinning Axe.
2. It's hard to find numbers on the bleed that look even remotely good for Draven players while simultaneously having a meaningful impact on his early laning.

So we want with a fun mini-game where Draven farms up stacks and then has to cash them in by executing someone. We want the overall changes to be a net nerf (he's OP), but not much. There is a lot of power lost by simply ripping the passive out. We want this passive to be meaningful and have impact for Draven.

For example numbers, Statikk got Adoration up to 100 in just 5 minutes of laning from last hitting and Spinning Axe catches, and he's not even an expert Draven. This number is going to get high.

This is before the passive was changed, not in response to the current patch notes. I agree with the logic there, personally.

[webadict]

That's a really, really bad comparison. While I understand what you're trying to say, and like I said before, I don't really care too much about Draven anything anyways, it's a completely different situation. Udyr got bearhop for free, he didn't lose anything for it. Draven lost one of the best passives in the game and got one of the worst. Draven mains are perfectly within their rights to whine, at least a little bit.

Draven's passive was pretty OP, so I don't think they have a right to complain. You're right, all it adds is extra money now, but he just does ridiculous amounts of damage. And he didn't even need his passive! All it did was bully people out of lane, and give him an unfair edge in trades. Oh what's that? Draven had one of the highest win rates before the changes at about 54%? That's because you couldn't match him in lane. It was dumb.

[penguinofhonor]

That's a really, really bad comparison. While I understand what you're trying to say, and like I said before, I don't really care too much about Draven anything anyways, it's a completely different situation. Udyr got bearhop for free, he didn't lose anything for it. Draven lost one of the best passives in the game and got one of the worst. Draven mains are perfectly within their rights to whine, at least a little bit.

Udyr was underpowered and Draven was overpowered. They both got changes that attempted to correct that.

But I wasn't talking about that. I don't care about balance changes. I think it's pretty arrogant for Draven players to be upset at Riot nerfing their champion for being overpowered (though I guess arrogant Draven players would make a lot of sense).

What I was commenting on was that Udyr and Draven's changes both had a secondary goal - to make them more fun. And they both succeeded in that. You could make all sorts of arguments about how Phoenix Stance's on-hit is weaker than Vi's on-hit, or how Rengar gets a longer autoattack dash than Bear Stance, or how Ashe gets more consistent bonus gold than Draven, but that doesn't make those abilities not fun. At that point you're just seeking out external excuses for disliking an ability, and I think that's pointless.

[Astral]

I feel that they need to balance the ADC a bit more, with the emphasis on those with an escape mechanism other than Flash against those that do not have one. While many that don't have a hard escape usually have something to compensate for it (such as Sivir's spellshield, Ashe's slow, Draven's temporary movespeed increase) they tend to hit harder and scale better than those who do (a la Graves, whose range somewhat limits his early game phase, and Lucian, who despite his passive doesn't feel like he hits as hard as he should at late game.)

I understand that not every character should be good at every phase of the game, but the current meta heavily limits the type of characters you see in each lane despite the rekatively large roster. Galio, for example, is rarely seen despite being a hard counter to nearly any AP middle, same as Kassadin for squishier opponents, but both are solid picks for their all game utility.

The meta determines what characters get buffed and nerfed more than anything.  If some MLG pro exploits a new strategy and everyone copies it (as is seen with the brief popularity of any champion played in a tournament), expect it to be nerfed. I definitely felt Draven's poke in lane was a bit much, but I'm not going to think he's a lost cause now that they changed his passive.  I just expect more people to go back to Caitlin for her "best of everything" skillset.

I generally try not to play the same character, let aline the same lane, two games in a row, because that just doesn't feel fun to me. There are just too many champions to choose from to limit myself to one "infallible" strategy or character, especially with buffs and nerfs going off regularly.  Adapt or die.

[frostshotgg]

For the record, Kassadin is actually pretty highly contested higher up. He's something like Blitz is lower down.

ADCs in general are really strong. IIRC, Riot or at least some of the devdudes want sweeping nerfs on them. Of course the massive outcry that would inevitably come would almost immediately lead to changes being reverted. And of course that only nets a lower power level for everything. I really wish Riot would have 1 or 2 patches where they change EVERY champ like Dota does and just see how that works, so they could sneak in mass buffs for whole classes at a time, not just nerf problem characters.

[Astral]

The only issue I can see with large patches and sweeping changes is the amount of stress it would put on the already fragile mess of code they use for the client. The comparatively small 1.13 patch ended with people getting more bugsplats and disconnects than normal; a larger patch even on a "just buffing and nerfing the roster" basis would end up with more disabled characters or other unforseen consequences.  I wish they'd switch to something other than Adobe Air, at least.

They could definitely take more than a few notes from DotA 2 regarding competitive balance, even if they don't want to acknowledge the game due to animosity between their respective creators and fanboys.

[penguinofhonor]

IIRC, Riot or at least some of the devdudes want sweeping nerfs on them. Of course the massive outcry that would inevitably come would almost immediately lead to changes being reverted.

They pretty much did that back in Season 1 when they nerfed all the ADC items. There was massive outcry, and I think it was the least popular patch ever. But they didn't revert the nerfs.