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Author Topic: League of Legends - Patch 7.22 - Runes Reforged  (Read 1287513 times)

Sharp

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Re: League of Legends - Patch 3.08 - Aatrox, the Darkin Blade - Revised OP
« Reply #11820 on: August 24, 2013, 09:55:29 am »

Another thing of note is that jungle creep kills do not grant experience to surrounding allies, only for the killer, and the experience, given that the creep camps take time to repopulate, isn't very good.

Just a point that jungle creeps can provide experience to allies if allies are helping to kill the jungle creep at the point of jungle creep dying, in high level play you can occasionally see the starting red or blue buff experience being shared with another champ on the team to help get that champ to lvl 2 more quickly before the opponent, reaching lvl 2 before your opponent can allow some champs to bully enemies out of lane very early to snowball their way to victory.

Actually, no. It was patched out because teammates were accidentally stealing experience (or intentionally to be jerks) when they were helping their junglers. What you see at high levels of play is not the result of shared experience, but rather the jungler handing off the little creeps associated with the big buffs to one of the champs to give them a slight experience advantage.

Are you sure? I haven't played LoL for like 3 weeks but I don't think they did that in the recent patch notes, then I did a quick check on all season 3 patch notes and I can't see it say anywhere that leeching experience when helping kill jungle creeps has stopped. Just try it out for yourself and see if you can leech experience from the jungler (but don't steal the buff xD) I would test it out but im off LoL for a bit.
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webadict

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Re: League of Legends - Patch 3.08 - Aatrox, the Darkin Blade - Revised OP
« Reply #11821 on: August 24, 2013, 12:07:36 pm »

Another thing of note is that jungle creep kills do not grant experience to surrounding allies, only for the killer, and the experience, given that the creep camps take time to repopulate, isn't very good.

Just a point that jungle creeps can provide experience to allies if allies are helping to kill the jungle creep at the point of jungle creep dying, in high level play you can occasionally see the starting red or blue buff experience being shared with another champ on the team to help get that champ to lvl 2 more quickly before the opponent, reaching lvl 2 before your opponent can allow some champs to bully enemies out of lane very early to snowball their way to victory.

Actually, no. It was patched out because teammates were accidentally stealing experience (or intentionally to be jerks) when they were helping their junglers. What you see at high levels of play is not the result of shared experience, but rather the jungler handing off the little creeps associated with the big buffs to one of the champs to give them a slight experience advantage.

Are you sure? I haven't played LoL for like 3 weeks but I don't think they did that in the recent patch notes, then I did a quick check on all season 3 patch notes and I can't see it say anywhere that leeching experience when helping kill jungle creeps has stopped. Just try it out for yourself and see if you can leech experience from the jungler (but don't steal the buff xD) I would test it out but im off LoL for a bit.
Stealing xp from the jungler is not advised. He will hate you.
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Sirian

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Re: League of Legends - Patch 3.08 - Aatrox, the Darkin Blade - Revised OP
« Reply #11822 on: August 24, 2013, 01:04:42 pm »

Or getting a really good leash, if different.

Leashes were removed quite some time ago. Now the jungle creeps will attack whoever is the closest. But laners are still encouraged to deal a good chunk of damage to the blue (or red) at lvl 1 to help their jungler.

And yes 5-man invades are hard to counter in lower ranks because it's easy to organise an attack invasion then it is to organise a defence especially as an attack might not come so defending for an attack which never arrives can hurt your team in early experience in lanes. Sometimes the best defence is a good offence.

From my own experience, I'd says that invades are rarely worth the trouble. You'll rarely get kills against reasonably skilled opponents, and you're almost certain to hurt the laning of some members of your team by wasting creep XP and gold. You also have the risk of giving kills to the enemy if they are well prepared.

A risky gamble in my eyes.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 01:14:49 pm by Sirian »
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Sharp

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Re: League of Legends - Patch 3.08 - Aatrox, the Darkin Blade - Revised OP
« Reply #11823 on: August 24, 2013, 01:10:56 pm »

Yeah unless your Nunu or Shaco you are going to need help at lvl 1 on jungle.

Stealing xp from the jungler is not advised. He will hate you.

Well it won't be stealing xp if I'm wrong (which I don't think I am...)
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webadict

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Re: League of Legends - Patch 3.08 - Aatrox, the Darkin Blade - Revised OP
« Reply #11824 on: August 24, 2013, 01:47:09 pm »

Or getting a really good leash, if different.

Leashes were removed quite some time ago. Now the jungle creeps will attack whoever is the closest. But laners are still encouraged to deal a good chunk of damage to the blue (or red) at lvl 1 to help their jungler.
That is what I meant by a leash.
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da dwarf lord

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Re: League of Legends - Patch 3.08 - Aatrox, the Darkin Blade - Revised OP
« Reply #11825 on: August 24, 2013, 05:26:10 pm »

And yes 5-man invades are hard to counter in lower ranks because it's easy to organise an attack invasion then it is to organise a defence especially as an attack might not come so defending for an attack which never arrives can hurt your team in early experience in lanes. Sometimes the best defence is a good offence.

From my own experience, I'd says that invades are rarely worth the trouble. You'll rarely get kills against reasonably skilled opponents, and you're almost certain to hurt the laning of some members of your team by wasting creep XP and gold. You also have the risk of giving kills to the enemy if they are well prepared.

A risky gamble in my eyes.

Against some junglers it is really worth it, that amumu is going to struggle without that early blue and subsequently it delays the mid getting the subsequent blues as the jungler tries to catch up.
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frostshotgg

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Re: League of Legends - Patch 3.08 - Aatrox, the Darkin Blade - Revised OP
« Reply #11826 on: August 24, 2013, 05:39:32 pm »

Amumu being desperate for blue is a common misconception. Amumu can do just fine without it, it just takes a mana potion or two for his early clears.
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webadict

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Re: League of Legends - Patch 3.08 - Aatrox, the Darkin Blade - Revised OP
« Reply #11827 on: August 24, 2013, 05:47:59 pm »

And yes 5-man invades are hard to counter in lower ranks because it's easy to organise an attack invasion then it is to organise a defence especially as an attack might not come so defending for an attack which never arrives can hurt your team in early experience in lanes. Sometimes the best defence is a good offence.

From my own experience, I'd says that invades are rarely worth the trouble. You'll rarely get kills against reasonably skilled opponents, and you're almost certain to hurt the laning of some members of your team by wasting creep XP and gold. You also have the risk of giving kills to the enemy if they are well prepared.

A risky gamble in my eyes.

Against some junglers it is really worth it, that amumu is going to struggle without that early blue and subsequently it delays the mid getting the subsequent blues as the jungler tries to catch up.
Amumu being desperate for blue is a common misconception. Amumu can do just fine without it, it just takes a mana potion or two for his early clears.
Heck, you might even be able to push past that. Invades are okay, but they're usually better if you DON'T encounter the enemy team.
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Sharp

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Re: League of Legends - Patch 3.08 - Aatrox, the Darkin Blade - Revised OP
« Reply #11828 on: August 24, 2013, 06:09:44 pm »

Nah invading and meeting no enemy sucks, it can just end up being a buff trade, now stealing an enemy buff while they are doing it is satisfying and effective. I feel that blue buff is much more important at the start then red buff for almost all junglers as the cooldown reduction is great and the mana regen is a must, red buff on the other hand doesn't do that much damage although the slow is great for ganks but not a requirement to do ganks so if you just steal the red buff it doesn't slow down an enemy jungler that much, they will lose a bit of experience but will probably have more health and can do ganks with less risk to themselves.

Invasions are risky but the payoffs can be great especially on low level games as players don't defend that well and people don't have flash which means if you meet someone while doing an invasion they have no escape and are easy to kill, higher level it can be less worth it but usually the reward outweighs the risk as long as it's not a late invasion.

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webadict

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Re: League of Legends - Patch 3.08 - Aatrox, the Darkin Blade - Revised OP
« Reply #11829 on: August 24, 2013, 08:33:02 pm »

Nah invading and meeting no enemy sucks, it can just end up being a buff trade, now stealing an enemy buff while they are doing it is satisfying and effective. I feel that blue buff is much more important at the start then red buff for almost all junglers as the cooldown reduction is great and the mana regen is a must, red buff on the other hand doesn't do that much damage although the slow is great for ganks but not a requirement to do ganks so if you just steal the red buff it doesn't slow down an enemy jungler that much, they will lose a bit of experience but will probably have more health and can do ganks with less risk to themselves.

Invasions are risky but the payoffs can be great especially on low level games as players don't defend that well and people don't have flash which means if you meet someone while doing an invasion they have no escape and are easy to kill, higher level it can be less worth it but usually the reward outweighs the risk as long as it's not a late invasion.
It's assumed that when you invade, you ward your own buff. But, I guess this isn't a good assumption for all...

Invading and finding a team is far riskier. You have no guarantee that you can defend against the action, plus further lanes that are needed in order to properly and safely execute such maneuvers can be disrupted or even lost if they find enemies, as the enemies need only keep that lane from returning too soon. The risks do not outweigh the rewards most of the time.

This is assuming that you DON'T meet a team that is willing to fight you, either. Failing an invade has more negative consequences than succeeding one has positives, as not only do lose that buff, a number of teammates, but also morale, which can cut deep.

But, if we're just assuming that it's okay to use the maneuver because they're low levels, then that's the spirit on how to teach people what to do. Don't tell them the downsides, and just assume your enemy is bad! It is best to never assume your enemy's skill until you've seen their mistakes. Until that point, assume they are better than you. Worst case scenario, they are!

So, meeting NO enemy does not suck unless you really want to fight. It means you are either being watched, or you can snag a free buff. Heck, hopefully it means you can snag 3/4 buffs for free.

The best plan is simply... Don't do it. I have seen far more failed invades than successful ones, and even the ones that succeed incur some sort of issue arising from it, and losing the game. It's better to protect your own buff than try to steal the enemies.

Also, you're not entirely correct. While the CDR is great and the mana/energy regen can be beneficial, some champions simply do more damage with Red Buff starts. Red buff deals 12 damage per second at lvl 2, which can be much more beneficial than the blue buff for champions with HIGHER cooldowns, as their cooldowns are simply so high, they are only able to use their skills once or twice during a buff camp. Also, if mana or energy regen isn't something your character needs, it's not a bad start. I won't argue that blue is typically a safe and easy buff to start, but it doesn't necessarily increase your damage more.
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Sharp

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Re: League of Legends - Patch 3.08 - Aatrox, the Darkin Blade - Revised OP
« Reply #11830 on: August 24, 2013, 09:49:28 pm »

I'm saying low level invades are easier because typically enemy champs don't have flash, flash is a great tool to escape ganks but at low level you don't have it which means early invasions can be much more successful. It's just an added bonus that generally low levelled teams don't co-operate on defending early, heck even playing gold ranked it's hard to get a team organised for defending an obvious invade composition.

Also in low level teams you generally won't have people with the starting ward mastery which means that invasions are less likely to be spotted by wards.

There is a reason why they say offence is the best defence, attacking you generally have more control over a situation and the choices you make while defending you have to try and respond to situation as it arises. It is possible to set up an ambush to defeat an invading team but when an invasion happens the worst odds you get as the invading side is 5 vs 5 and the best odds of 1 vs 1 so even in a 5 vs 5 meet-up it becomes a fair fight and not an automatic fail. I have seen fail invades and I have seen fail defences and fail counter-invades and just general fail but if its two evenly balanced teams then invading is the better choice more often then not.
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Chaoswizkid

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Re: League of Legends - Patch 3.08 - Aatrox, the Darkin Blade - Revised OP
« Reply #11831 on: August 24, 2013, 10:19:21 pm »

Are you sure? I haven't played LoL for like 3 weeks but I don't think they did that in the recent patch notes, then I did a quick check on all season 3 patch notes and I can't see it say anywhere that leeching experience when helping kill jungle creeps has stopped. Just try it out for yourself and see if you can leech experience from the jungler (but don't steal the buff xD) I would test it out but im off LoL for a bit.

Sorry, sorry. I was wrong, and apparently I'm not very good at remembering when things were implemented. The patch from November 2011 reduced the experience range from 800 to 400. I think that, coupled with the experience shift to the big monsters of the camps in actually more recent patches, allows for almost all of the experience to get shifted to the jungler (since any helpers can move out of the way). I've also only seen/heard about others, such as mid or ADC take the little monsters from the camp for the exp. boost, so I was confused about that.

I just remember the two junglers on my collegiate team being ridiculously happy that the experience range got reduced since they were tired of getting denied experience by foolish teammates in their public games. Totally didn't think it was 2 years ago. Anyway, that's all my bad, you're right.
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webadict

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Re: League of Legends - Patch 3.08 - Aatrox, the Darkin Blade - Revised OP
« Reply #11832 on: August 24, 2013, 11:44:23 pm »

I'm saying low level invades are easier because typically enemy champs don't have flash, flash is a great tool to escape ganks but at low level you don't have it which means early invasions can be much more successful. It's just an added bonus that generally low levelled teams don't co-operate on defending early, heck even playing gold ranked it's hard to get a team organised for defending an obvious invade composition.

Also in low level teams you generally won't have people with the starting ward mastery which means that invasions are less likely to be spotted by wards.

There is a reason why they say offence is the best defence, attacking you generally have more control over a situation and the choices you make while defending you have to try and respond to situation as it arises. It is possible to set up an ambush to defeat an invading team but when an invasion happens the worst odds you get as the invading side is 5 vs 5 and the best odds of 1 vs 1 so even in a 5 vs 5 meet-up it becomes a fair fight and not an automatic fail. I have seen fail invades and I have seen fail defences and fail counter-invades and just general fail but if its two evenly balanced teams then invading is the better choice more often then not.
What level is that even? It sounds lower than you even usually see junglers, which generally gives them two sets of buffs to deal with anyway.
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baruk

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Re: League of Legends - Patch 3.08 - Aatrox, the Darkin Blade - Revised OP
« Reply #11833 on: August 25, 2013, 03:21:02 am »

HUGE game on right now, the 3rd/4th place playoff between gambit gaming and evil geniuses. The winner qualifies for the world championships, fanatic and lemondogs having secured their spots yesterday.
http://www.twitch.tv/riotgames
edit: two one-way stomps so far, it goes to game 3.
edit2: game 3 was more interesting with some back and forth. Congratulations to
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 05:10:15 am by baruk »
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ansontan2000

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Re: League of Legends - Patch 3.08 - Aatrox, the Darkin Blade - Revised OP
« Reply #11834 on: August 25, 2013, 05:07:05 am »

Gambit just won.
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