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[Jopax]

I want to get him just for that passive. Plus he seems really neat, a bit fiddly, will have to wait for a proper champ spotlight tp decide.

[frostshotgg]

Sion isn't getting touched until his rework, full stop.
Veigar needs his Q like that to function. On someone whose only place in a team is making it a 4v4 has to have the scaling.
Nasus doesn't really need the change. It's the meta fucking him over, not his kit.

[Sharp]

I have been having hilarious amounts of fun going jungle Sion, building as tank with spirit of golem and warmogs and atma's, then late game I can switch out some items and buy AP Kit for shock and awe with . So easy to clear jungle and low cd on stun is great.

To be honest though Sion snowballing isn't that huge, normally by late game he only has around 500 bonus health, compare to Veigar who will have around 300 bonus AP and Nasus who will have like around 600 bonus damage on Q. And Singed who isn't really a snowballer but just for comparison will be having +1000 bonus health with his passive.

Sion's passive and innate tankiness while still being able to deal out high damage though makes him powerful regardless of him snowballing health.

---

EDIT: After seeing the Thresh video he doesn't seem as powerful as I thought, the pull distance is equal to a Naut pull distance so not going to be that easy to pull over walls, and his pull/push doesnt seem to have much range either, his ulti wall doesn't seem hard to escape from and will be hard to get an enemy champ to hit two walls. His lantern escape though seems pretty powerful for getting team-mates out of a jam though, but his CC isn't as scary as other supports.

[frostshotgg]

I disagree. His Q is absurdly powerful. It has the terror of blitz's Q with the positioning power of Naut or Amumu, and control over who goes where. He also has a powerful piece of utility in his E, either as a disengage, or a way to move enemies even more, and his W is a little on the absurd side of utilitarian. Can you imagine a Draven/Tresh lane? Those tower dives man. His R is probably the least powerful piece of his kit. He also sacrifices scaling on his resists for that passive, but 200 souls, which isn't too hard to believe, is still enough to put him as absurdly tanky.

[penguinofhonor]

Sion isn't getting touched until his rework, full stop.
Veigar needs his Q like that to function. On someone whose only place in a team is making it a 4v4 has to have the scaling.
Nasus doesn't really need the change. It's the meta fucking him over, not his kit.

It's almost like Sion's rework would be a good time to implement a change like this if it was deemed necessary. How crazy!
There are multiple single target burst mages. They all manage to function without Veigar's passive, so I don't really think it's 100% necessary at all.
The meta has been screwing over Nasus since 2010. He has been screwed over by pretty much every single meta that has ever existed. I think we can stop using that as an excuse now.

[Sharp]

I disagree. His Q is absurdly powerful. It has the terror of blitz's Q with the positioning power of Naut or Amumu, and control over who goes where. He also has a powerful piece of utility in his E, either as a disengage, or a way to move enemies even more, and his W is a little on the absurd side of utilitarian. Can you imagine a Draven/Tresh lane? Those tower dives man. His R is probably the least powerful piece of his kit. He also sacrifices scaling on his resists for that passive, but 200 souls, which isn't too hard to believe, is still enough to put him as absurdly tanky.

His Q isn't absurdly powerful though, it pulls champions slowly for 1.5 seconds so its a nice ranged CC but it doesn't have the same terror as of the, "Get over here!" as Blitz, it is just like the naut pull except an option to pull yourself closer or not. His E doesnt really move enemies that far so its useful for dealing damage and interrupt like mao's. His W is super powerful though, a shield and get out of jail free card for ally.

Speaking of mao can see some hilarious tower baits where he tries to snare the carry in middle of lane and whoosh he is right by tower getting CC'ed. Also looks like Q doesn't interrupt you while its latched onto enemy so you can drag people around, not that much use as its for a short time but being able to move means its a great harass CC even when on low health.

A powerful support champ but Q is not as scary as imagined, still OP with the damage he deals and saving allies. Will also be a powerful top champ as well.

[frostshotgg]

It's almost like Sion's rework would be a good time to implement a change like this if it was deemed necessary. How crazy!
There are multiple single target burst mages. They all manage to function without Veigar's passive, so I don't really think it's 100% necessary at all.
The meta has been screwing over Nasus since 2010. He has been screwed over by pretty much every single meta that has ever existed. I think we can stop using that as an excuse now.

Nobody bursts as well as Veigar. Nobody. And he trades fucking everything for it. He needs that scaling badly. The only thing he has going for him is that he has what's basically an ult that's useful in teamfights on his E.

You're acting as if Sion's rework is coming any time soon in the next year. Riot hasn't even begun to look into him. Karma, Heimerdinger, and Viktor are coming first as far as I know, and if the previous reworks are any indication, those could easily fill until halfway into 2014.

Nasus hasn't been getting fucked over by the meta since 2010. The exact day he got screwed over was the 22nd of November in 2011, when S2 masteries went live. He had trouble previously, especially by metagolem, but that was because of standard endgame supercarry early-game shittiness, not because he couldn't do anything. He's had a much better time of it since S2 ended. Honestly, he can do with some mana cost reductions on his E, slight cd reduction on his R, and he'd be just fine. His passive and his Q actually are quite strong now.

I'm extremely, extremely hesitant how powerful that hook Q will be. 1.5 seconds IS a long time, but it's uncleansible. Once you get grabbed by it there's nothing you can do about it. The range on it is, if I recall correctly, 150 range longer than blitz's q, and it works much the same. There's going to be a lot of wallgrabs and the cooldown is quite a bit lower than Blitz's.

[penguinofhonor]

Nobody bursts as well as Veigar. Nobody. And he trades fucking everything for it. He needs that scaling badly. The only thing he has going for him is that he has what's basically an ult that's useful in teamfights on his E.

And if Veigar's Q farm got diminishing returns then there would be no way at all to buff his burst to compensate. It just wouldn't be possible. His base damages and AP ratios are completely set in stone.

You're acting as if Sion's rework is coming any time soon in the next year. Riot hasn't even begun to look into him. Karma, Heimerdinger, and Viktor are coming first as far as I know, and if the previous reworks are any indication, those could easily fill until halfway into 2014.

You're acting as if I said Sion's rework was coming soon. All I did was say that Thresh's new mechanic might fit on other infinitely scaling champions. Believe it or not, I have ideas about how some champions could be changed that are independent of whether Riot is actively working on those champions right now.

Nasus hasn't been getting fucked over by the meta since 2010. The exact day he got screwed over was the 22nd of November in 2011, when S2 masteries went live. He had trouble previously, especially by metagolem, but that was because of standard endgame supercarry early-game shittiness, not because he couldn't do anything. He's had a much better time of it since S2 ended. Honestly, he can do with some mana cost reductions on his E, slight cd reduction on his R, and he'd be just fine. His passive and his Q actually are quite strong now.

I don't know what game you were playing back then. The last round of Nasus buffs were during the Skarner patch, over three months before the S2 masteries. Back then, it had been obvious to everyone that he had been bad for a long time. There were tons of cries that he was getting screwed over by the kiting/gap closer meta during S1, alongside Udyr.

There was a surge in popularity because of the buffs, yes. And he stopped seeing play a while after, around the time of the S2 masteries. But they didn't kill him. He was already fading out before the mastery changes because people realized the buffs weren't enough to make him viable. He's too inconsistent, and it's even worse now. If you manage to counterpick him against a top that he can farm against, the enemy team will just lane switch and deny you.

[frostshotgg]

And if Veigar's Q farm got diminishing returns then there would be no way at all to buff his burst to compensate. It just wouldn't be possible. His base damages and AP ratios are completely set in stone.

Why yes, they are. Even the slightest change to them could change him from late game terror to complete monster in lane, or make him both. There's no way to implement diminishing returns on Veigar Q that would feel good. He wants to keep getting stronger, even when everybody else is already at their best.

You're acting as if I said Sion's rework was coming soon. All I did was say that Thresh's new mechanic might fit on other infinitely scaling champions. Believe it or not, I have ideas about how some champions could be changed that are independent of whether Riot is actively working on those champions right now.

You're acting as if there's any point in debating anything that isn't going to happen for a long long time. Odds are, Sion isn't even keeping his infinity come rework, Riot *really* doesn't like it. Champion reworks are volatile things, we can't honestly expect anything of Sion to stay the same.

I don't know what game you were playing back then. The last round of Nasus buffs were during the Skarner patch, over three months before the S2 masteries. Back then, it had been obvious to everyone that he had been bad for a long time. There were tons of cries that he was getting screwed over by the kiting/gap closer meta during S1, alongside Udyr.

There was a surge in popularity because of the buffs, yes. And he stopped seeing play a while after, around the time of the S2 masteries. But they didn't kill him. He was already fading out before the mastery changes because people realized the buffs weren't enough to make him viable. He's too inconsistent, and it's even worse now. If you manage to counterpick him against a top that he can farm against, the enemy team will just lane switch and deny you.

Nasus is on the weak side, this I won't deny. He could use higher numbers. That is literally all he needs. People will cry over fucking everything, that's never a good indication. Look at Udyr. He's been one of the most reliable picks in the jungle since day one. And no, the reason people gave up on him after the Skarner buffs WAS because of S2 masteries. Those things fucked him over so hard, it wasn't funny. You're saying that league is balanced around teams organized enough to not argue, never mind manage to lane switch and keep it switched. I've been to plat and I've yet to see that reliably, although I can't speak for diamond. Nasus doesn't need diminishing returns, because all that would do is mean he doesn't gain anything at all, he'd have to gain a ton of numbers on everything else to account for it.

[Errol]

Honestly, the infinite scaling on those old champs shouldn't be a problem in most cases. It's even one of the main attractions of those characters for certain people. (Sion's Enrage could use a minigame like Siphoning/Baleful have, though. Getting health for EVERY kill is a bit stupid when you can just blow up an entire wave at once by shield.)

A lot of the passive's power also depends on how high the soul frequency is, and I'd say they're keeping that one lowish. To get 50 AR/MR/AP you need approximately 75 souls, and I'm willing to bet you won't actually get any more in a real game. Perhaps you won't even get enough to get to the scaling cap, sitting at 30-35 AR/MR/AP (which would be a halfway reasonable value)


And, re: Game balance: I honestly think that with the approach Riot Games has been taking for this game for the past two years, the game is more or less unbalanceable. There's always going to be a few 'best' champions because they're simply the best at what they do, and there's too few things champions actually -do- when it comes down to it so the remainder of balance is a numbers game. Champion designs lately have not been adding any fundamentally new roles, or archetypes to the game - I think the last time that happened was Xin Zhao, and Xin essentially formalized a role that has been around in pieces - but rather on the gameplay, which you can say is different. The new champs do definitely feel fresh even if their roles are already well-defined.

That's not a bad approach, mind you. It's clearly making Riot money. And the number of champions is also a definite factor in this: It's nearly impossible to create 100 characters that each do something different. But they should keep the impossibility of balance in mind.

[Sharp]

Seriously Sion's infinite scaling is the worst out of the lot. Veigar and Nasus both have good ones and their scaling lets them deal a lot of damage late game. Sion only gets a measly amount of health per kill, needs rank 5 just to get 3 health per kill so for a 40 minute game Sion will really have ~500 hp bonus from Enrage. Nasus on the other hand will be dealing 600 bonus damage from his Q and Veigar will have +200 bonus AP.

600 bonus damage or 200 AP is loads better then 500 health.

Of course Sion's low cd range stun and his shield make him a powerful foe to deal with but his infinite scaling sucks hard, the bonus is almost negligible in terms of gameplay with the impact it has, not noticeable early game and doesn't even matter late game.

[frostshotgg]

If sion really gets rolling, the health can matter. That's one less defensive item you need and one more dps item.

[Sharp]

500 health for an ability at late game isn't that useful, even the AD bonus becomes less effective the longer the game goes on but can say the same for many other champions.

500 health is 1000g
200 AP is around 3500g
600 bonus damage for Nasus isn't really AD, lets say he can Q every 4 attacks so 600/4 for 150 AD which would cost around 5000g

on the snowballing trio Sion is the least effective snowballer.

Also speaking of Thresh, apparently he can't pull opponents over walls (though can pull himself over) so is a Naut/Mumu hybrid and not like Blitz. Might make him an interesting jungler though, oh and Thresh's snowballing is also much better then Sion's.

[webadict]

Keep in mind that it can take Sion a fraction of the time it takes the others to net those. You have to milk every wave for all it's worth with Nasus/Veigar for that sweet, sweet stat bonus. Sion can walk by and nuke the lot and net himself his bonus is about three seconds.

"Yay! I got... 60 more health..."

[penguinofhonor]

The point of diminishing returns is not to stop someone from scaling into lategame. Thresh still does. Diminishing returns are intended to make your bonus scaling worth less gold the more of it you have, reducing the impact of being denied and reducing the ridiculous snowballing that it can create. It lets you balance more around the middle case instead of the best and worse cases.

I understand people pick up these guys for this sort of stuff, but people picked up old Tryndamere for his ridiculous swinginess and Riot decided that wasn't worth perpetual uselessness in high level play. Sion and Veigar are a lot closer to balanced, but Nasus is pretty much in the same postion Tryndamere was a year ago.

Also Thresh's passive no longer gives magic resist.