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[frostshotgg]

Beyond that, I wouldn't even get one last whisper on Varus, he does a lot better with Black Cleaver.

[Repulsion]

Beyond that, I wouldn't even get one last whisper on Varus, he does a lot better with Black Cleaver.

I'd still consider a Last Whisper convenient if the enemy has a lot of armor. Then again, a Black Cleaver reduces armor, but the LW has a more immediate, maybe even better effect. The maximum reduction of armor is 60 from Black Cleaver, so I'd guess it's conditional as to when LW or BC is better.

[Cthulhu]

Flat armor pen's for doing true damage to squishies, percent-based is for doing noticeable damage to tanks.

Two Last Whispers is never ever ever good.

[frostshotgg]

Well, actually, it's limited to 45, not 60. Either way, on ranged ADs, I prefer to have more stats, seeing as how most of them aren't going to have a lot more than 70, which is how much ArPen I end up with. (On most melees, I end up going for Ghostblade too, so that's 90 total arpen for tanky derps. They'd need to have 230-ish armor for a Last Whisper to be equal to that.) If you count the additional 10% from masteries (I don't take flat pen mastery), they need to have 270 armor for LW to be worth it, but that's discounting the fact that you get more AD, and some nice AS to boot, from BC, all for 600 more gold.

EDIT: Sometimes, you find the jackpot on General Discussion. This is one of those times. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2156991

[Bordellimies]

Copypasta from the LoL Wiki:

Last Whisper becomes more effective at penetrating armor than The Brutalizer when an opponent has more than 37.5 armor.
It becomes more effective than Youmuu's Ghostblade at 50 armor.
It becomes more effective than 3 stacks of the Black Cleaver's debuff at 112.5 armor.

[umiman]

Since frostshotgg requested it, the Bay12 LoL guide is now open to public to edit.

Editable link is here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Zm_CUhnZ2Ne2ikmhM9yPnH0QO5eo4G6jPjRS5xm5MkM/edit?authkey=CPPSgdIO

[frostshotgg]

Copypasta from the LoL Wiki:

Last Whisper becomes more effective at penetrating armor than The Brutalizer when an opponent has more than 37.5 armor.
It becomes more effective than Youmuu's Ghostblade at 50 armor.
It becomes more effective than 3 stacks of the Black Cleaver's debuff at 112.5 armor.

That's discounting runes and masteries. I have 25 arpen on my runepage, and I use the 10% reduction mastery
My scribbles on my notepad look roughly like:

Effective Armor=.9(A-70)
Effective Armor=.64(A)
.64A=.9A-70
[Calculations figuring out what 1/.64 (1.5625) is, and multiplying both sides by it, isolating A, then removing the negatives]
.40625A=109.375
[Math for 109.375(1/.40625)
A=269.23076923069...

Also, thank you, Umiman.

[tomas1297]

@my build:
 At late game we were definitely winning so I didn't care a lot about items (thus the two Last Whispers, I thought I didn't have one yet xP ). I could do better if I wasn't in a hurry to end this.
 Also Last Whisper is ok on Varus. Especially with a physical attack build. Especially since I was fighting Alistar and Volibear.

 @kiting:
 Ha. So this is what you call kiting. LoL terminology confuses me. : P
 ...What's ganking?
 
 @"have you tried Ashe?"
 No, because I'm saving money for Varus (about halfway there). I took a quick look at her skills though.
 Focus (Innate) : I never really cared about crits. Probably dangerous with correct optimization, but I'd rather have more "pure" DPS. Varus on the other hand gains attack speed with each kill, making early game minion farming and pushing very effective.
 Frost Shot : Never liked toggles. Compared Varus' Hail of Arrows (being his respective slow), it's more of a spammy constant slower, but Hail of Arrows deals damage, is AoE, detonates blight and leaves a slowing zone for some time after the cast. Personaly, I prefer Hail of Arrows - less casts, but stronger.
 Volley: Compared to Piercing Arrow as a main damage dealer ability, Piercing arrow becomes much more damaging in late levels, has extreme range (they won't even expect it coming) and Volley, in my opinion, is easy to predict and avoid. Volley is better in short range and can slow, but I prefer the extra damage and ability to completely dominate retreating champions.
 Hawkshot: Looks pretty useless. The gold bonus is pathetic (if you killed 100 minions with lv 5 hawkshot, you'd only get 500 extra gold - the cost of an early game item) and the active, is okay I guess, but it's really not my thing, since I'm more of a lane flanking type and I like to have the minions do the spotting for me. As a passive, I like Blighted Quiver much more. Damage that stacks with the targets max hp? Thank you!
 Enchanted Crystal Arrow: It's good, but I prefer Chain of Corruption due to the quick spread between champions that can surprisingly easily immobilize 3-4 champions in one cast. I guess it's more of a situational ability, but I LOVE Chain of Corruption.
 
 tl;dr I prefer extra damage over pure kiting. I'll pass.

edit: Also, is there a B12 guild/clan/alliance/whatever?

[Bordellimies]

Ashe is the most boring champion I can think of in the league.

[tomas1297]

Ashe is the most boring champion I can think of in the league.

Yeah, that too. :V

[webadict]

Ashe is the most boring champion I can think of in the league.

I disagree. Sivir is much more boring.

[Bordellimies]

Ashe is the most boring champion I can think of in the league.

I disagree. Sivir is much more boring.

I disagree. Sivir has spellshield which is fun to use (trying to bait the enemy to casting an important spell and then you block it) and boomerang, Ashe only has her ult. The cooldown is too long on it. And because volley doesn't stack with AP, I can't do that either.

[penguinofhonor]

That's discounting runes and masteries. I have 25 arpen on my runepage, and I use the 10% reduction mastery

You should really get flat AD instead of armor pen. It's significantly better early game.

...What's ganking?

That's when someone comes into your lane to kill you.

Focus (Innate) : I never really cared about crits. Probably dangerous with correct optimization, but I'd rather have more "pure" DPS. Varus on the other hand gains attack speed with each kill, making early game minion farming and pushing very effective.
 Frost Shot : Never liked toggles. Compared Varus' Hail of Arrows (being his respective slow), it's more of a spammy constant slower, but Hail of Arrows deals damage, is AoE, detonates blight and leaves a slowing zone for some time after the cast. Personaly, I prefer Hail of Arrows - less casts, but stronger.
 Volley: Compared to Piercing Arrow as a main damage dealer ability, Piercing arrow becomes much more damaging in late levels, has extreme range (they won't even expect it coming) and Volley, in my opinion, is easy to predict and avoid. Volley is better in short range and can slow, but I prefer the extra damage and ability to completely dominate retreating champions.
 Hawkshot: Looks pretty useless. The gold bonus is pathetic (if you killed 100 minions with lv 5 hawkshot, you'd only get 500 extra gold - the cost of an early game item) and the active, is okay I guess, but it's really not my thing, since I'm more of a lane flanking type and I like to have the minions do the spotting for me. As a passive, I like Blighted Quiver much more. Damage that stacks with the targets max hp? Thank you!
 Enchanted Crystal Arrow: It's good, but I prefer Chain of Corruption due to the quick spread between champions that can surprisingly easily immobilize 3-4 champions in one cast. I guess it's more of a situational ability, but I LOVE Chain of Corruption.

Focus: Ashe's passive doesn't really work like most crits. It should be viewed as more of "whenever I come back to lane or at the beginning of every team fight, I get one free crit". Also, crits are necessary for optimizing your DPS. Phantom Dancers and Infinity Edge are usually used together on every AD carry. Crits are very random at lower amounts, but once you get a good crit %, then they become reliable additional DPS.
Frost Shot: It's a stronger move than Hail of Arrows, in my opinion. Don't underestimate how powerful this move is.
Volley: It's really just Hail of Arrows that hits differently.
Hawkshot: You're right, the passive on this is bad. But the active on it is amazing. You know the summoner spell Clairvoyance? This is like having a free third summoner spell.
ECA: I personally prefer this over Varus' ultimate. Its main draw is the ridiculous range. Hitting people from across the map with a 3.5 second stun is probably the most satisfying thing in the game.
 

tl;dr I prefer extra damage over pure kiting. I'll pass.

Understandable. I'd also check out Miss Fortune and Graves. They're both high-damage, low-utility AD carries. Ashe and Varus are more high-utility carries.

[webadict]

Ashe is the most boring champion I can think of in the league.

I disagree. Sivir is much more boring.

I disagree. Sivir has spellshield which is fun to use (trying to bait the enemy to casting an important spell and then you block it) and boomerang, Ashe only has her ult. The cooldown is too long on it. And because volley doesn't stack with AP, I can't do that either.

Nah. You forget the importance of kiting if you only do that with Ashe. The fun behind Ashe is giving the enemy nowhere to run. She is a dancer. The ult is probably less important BECAUSE of the long cooldown.

Sivir's spellshield is boring. Spend 75 mana to maybe gain 150 and block a spell. Now continue using boomerangs all game.

Here's how I imagine Sivir:

Passive: Uses Boomerangs
Q: Boomerang
W: Boomerang
E: Boomerang
R: Boomerang

I don't even notice the spellshield, which is probably also a boomerang.

[penguinofhonor]

NAUTILUS IS THE BEST

I got fed early game with him today (not hard to do, hehe) and tried building a ROA on him because I've been told that's what fed Nautiluses get. So I do it and then suddenly this guy is doing so much damage and also CCing everyone. What can Nautilus not do?