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[webadict]

If you can't understand gold value and diminishing returns, there's no helping you understanding this topic.

The only diminishing returns in the game are %pen(not sure about this one), dodge, MS and slows.

Incorrect. Armor and MR are technically diminishing returns. %pen is actually NOT a diminishing return. I am almost positive it stacks additively. Though, this can be tested with the 10% mastery and an item.

1.5% is literally just the same thing as 1.5 armour and mr.

Derrrrrrrrp.

A tiny fraction better vs penn and % penn, maybe.

Not correct. It's actually like 1.52 Armor at 0 Armor and then INCREASES from there.

Since the 1.5% damage is a reduction, that means you're effectively gaining more Armor/MR as you gain Armor/MR, since your Armor and MR are diminishing returns on damage reduction.

Therefore, at 0 Armor/MR, you have a natural 0% damage reduction, plus the 1.5% damage reduction means you take 98.5% damage. This would be the same as having 1.523 Armor/MR.
At 25 Armor/MR, you have a natural 20% damage reduction, plus the 1.5% damage reduction means you take 78.818% damage. This would be the same as having 26.875 Armor/MR.
At 100 Armor/MR, you have a natural 50% damage reduction, plus the 1.5% damage reduction means you take 49.261% damage. This would be the same as having 103 Armor/MR.
At 300 Armor/MR, you have a natural 75% damage reduction, plus the 1.5% damage reduction means you take 24.631% damage. This would be the same as having 306 Armor/MR.

You gain more Armor and MR from having more Armor and MR.

% penetration and % damage reduction are two sides of the same coin you numbnut. Also, every single stat in this game has diminishing returns. If not everyone would just stack one single stat forever and it'd be the optimal strategy.

Nope. AD has 100% returns, which some people DO stack. Health technically has increasing returns depending on Armor and MR.

[cerapa]

Incorrect. Armor and MR are technically diminishing returns.

Incorrect. They seem to have diminishing returns, but they dont.

Every point of a resist adds 1% of your health to your effective health. Thus if you have 100 HP, then you will get 1 EHP for every point in resists, regardless of the amount of resists you have.

You guys are looking at it from the reduction angle, which is an odd point of view in my opinion, if you are gonna do actual math on these things.

[umiman]

I think everyone here is operating on different interpretations of what diminishing returns means.

[cerapa]

My definition of diminishing returns is that something gets worse the more you have of it.

[umiman]

Mine is, by definition:
"as X increases, the marginal value of an additional X will at some point be less than the marginal value of the previous X.:

In other words, the more you buy something, the more you want to buy something else. In LoL terms, at some point I want to stop stacking Bloodthirsters and buy a Zeal instead.

This is known as the Law of Diminishing Returns. Sometimes called Marginal Utility.

[cerapa]

Whats marginal value?

Anyway, yeah, differing definitions.

EDIT: With your definition, there is one stat that doesnt have diminishing returns, and that is CDR, before its capped at 40%, that is.
EDIT2: More a definition of marginal value anyway. You think in percentages, I went with flat values.

[webadict]

Incorrect. Armor and MR are technically diminishing returns.

Incorrect. They seem to have diminishing returns, but they dont.

Every point of a resist adds 1% of your health to your effective health. Thus if you have 100 HP, then you will get 1 EHP for every point in resists, regardless of the amount of resists you have.

You guys are looking at it from the reduction angle, which is an odd point of view in my opinion, if you are gonna do actual math on these things.

Ah, my mistake. I was looking at it wrong.

The formula is as follows: Effective Health = Health / (1 - Damage Reduction) = Health / (1 - [Armor/MR] / (100 + [Armor/MR])) = Health * (100 + [Armor/MR]) / (100 + [Armor/MR] - [Armor/MR]) = Health * (100 + [Armor/MR]) / 100 = Health * [Armor/MR] / 100

Whats marginal value?

Anyway, yeah, differing definitions.

EDIT: With your definition, there is one stat that doesnt have diminishing returns, and that is CDR, before its capped at 40%, that is.
EDIT2: More a definition of marginal value anyway. You think in percentages, I went with flat values.

Which means that technically, CDR DOES have a diminishing return. The only ones that wouldn't would be AD, AP, Armor, MR, Health, and Mana.

[Jopax]

Armor and MR are diminishing, the more you have the more you need to get the same precentage, which is why flat AP is much better at early levels than late game, because 25 armor pen when someone has 100 armor is much more than 25 armor pen when someone has 200 armor.

[umiman]

I'm not an economics professor, so I'll let Investopedia explain:

For example, say you go to a buffet and the first plate of food you eat is very good. On a scale of ten you would give it a ten. Now your hunger has been somewhat tamed, but you get another full plate of food. Since you're not as hungry, your enjoyment rates at a seven at best. Most people would stop before their utility drops even more, but say you go back to eat a third full plate of food and your utility drops even more to a three. If you kept eating, you would eventually reach a point at which your eating makes you sick, providing dissatisfaction, or 'dis-utility'.

Don't get confused, this is not the actual "real" value of the product, but the personal appreciation that you apply to each additional change in value. Using the Investopedia example, technically speaking, each plate of the buffet is worth the exact same amount. Only your personal perception of the value obtained changes.

Again, in LoL terms, it's the same as wondering if your fourth Bloodthirster is worth it (even though the actual gold price of the Bloodthirster hasn't changed at all since your first one).

In this case, each additional point of armour and MR is worth less and less to a player the more they stack it even though the actual gold value hasn't changed between each additional point. A case of "Why the hell do I want to buy more armour when I already have 200?! I should buy AD instead!".

---

So you can see how our definitions of "diminishing returns" differ.

[cerapa]

Armor and MR are diminishing, the more you have the more you need to get the same precentage, which is why flat AP is much better at early levels than late game, because 25 armor pen when someone has 100 armor is much more than 25 armor pen when someone has 200 armor.

Um, what?

Anyway, CDR stacks with itself. Reduction is funny like that. If you have 33% CDR, then you get an extra spell over someone elses 2 in a general timeframe, which is a 50% increase in power.
If you have only 17 more, then you get 50% reduction, which means you get an extra spell for every spell from someone else has, which is a 100% increase in power over the original.
If you have 25 more, this makes 75%, which means you get four spells for every spell of someone else, which is a 300% increase in power over the original.
If you bump reduction up to 100%, then you have an infinity increase in power, which is some pretty hard scaling with itself.

This is why CDR is hard-capped at 40%.

[webadict]

Armor and MR are diminishing, the more you have the more you need to get the same precentage, which is why flat AP is much better at early levels than late game, because 25 armor pen when someone has 100 armor is much more than 25 armor pen when someone has 200 armor.

Um, what?

Anyway, CDR stacks with itself. Reduction is funny like that. If you have 33% CDR, then you get an extra spell over someone elses 2 in a general timeframe, which is a 50% increase in power.
If you have only 17 more, then you get 50% reduction, which means you get an extra spell for every spell from someone else has, which is a 100% increase in power over the original.
If you have 25 more, this makes 75%, which means you get four spells for every spell of someone else, which is a 300% increase in power over the original.
If you bump reduction up to 100%, then you have an infinity increase in power, which is some pretty hard scaling with itself.

This is why CDR is hard-capped at 40%.

Yes, but being hardcapped at 40% means that there IS a diminishing return after 40% because getting 300% CDR doesn't matter if it acts as 40%.

Also, you quoted the wrong post.

[cerapa]

Yes, but being hardcapped at 40% means that there IS a diminishing return after 40% because getting 300% CDR doesn't matter if it acts as 40%.

Also, you quoted the wrong post.

Differences about how you look at it. Personally I dont put hard-caps and diminishing returns into the same basket, though they technically belong there.

I quoted the right post. I assumed the "anyway" would signify that I started another topic from the "What?" and his post.

[webadict]

Yes, but being hardcapped at 40% means that there IS a diminishing return after 40% because getting 300% CDR doesn't matter if it acts as 40%.

Also, you quoted the wrong post.

Differences about how you look at it. Personally I dont put hard-caps and diminishing returns into the same basket, though they technically belong there.

I quoted the right post. I assumed the "anyway" would signify that I started another topic from the "What?" and his post.

Oh. Yeah, his post doesn't make sense. It's like 5 different points that don't make sense at once, though.

[Jopax]

Pretty much what umi said, they are diminishing in returns because the more you get them the less they are worth.Because getting 100 armor when you have zero makes a bigger impact than getting 100 armor when you allready have 200.

[umiman]

I got my hands on the Dota 2 beta finally.

Well...

It's ultra hard. And there's so many big differences from LoL that I'm not sure you can even consider them in the same realm of experience. I'm not even sure I like many of the differences. It's also pretty skewed right now because there's no tutorial and I'm forced to trial by fire everything, so my initial impression will definitely be negative.

I'll just make a quick list of grievances:
- There's currently no pre-champion select champion information. If you don't know anything about the heroes, you're fucked. Similarly, there's no "champion tips" and the recommended build tree is really convoluted.
- The item UI is terribad. ESPECIALLY if you don't know anything. In LoL everything is seperated by category. In Dota 2, it's separated by... I shit you not... "stats", "arcane", "upgrades". So good luck trying to find a mana regen item if you don't know what gives mana regen. There's so many things wrong with the item UI that listing them would take three pages.
- There's currently no smartcast either. There's also no targeting priority. This is horrible when you waste your ult on a creep that's standing underneath the champion. I really hope they fix this.
- The pathfinding is ridiculously bad. I swear to god that your champion sometimes runs the OPPOSITE direction when you click to run backwards. Furthermore, if you're like me and you like to spam clicking, this actually breaks the pathfinding even more as your champion starts running in random directions.

That's about it. There's lots of other things too but I feel those are more gameplay design differences. Things like the ridiculous chain CC that can make you absolutely useless for 10 seconds. The super long death timers (1 minute death timer 20 minutes into the game...). The lack of a death recap to actually tell you what killed you (I never realized how important this is until now). Games that take eons to finish. Things like that... I dunno if I'll get used to it, but that's my first impressions after 5 hours or so.