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[RedKing]

Lemme run the numbers of ArPen/MPen (Mark of Destruction) vs. combination of the flat ArPen and MPen marks.

Greater Mark of Destruction = +1 ArPen, +0.57 MPen for 820 IP
Greater Mark of Desolation = +1.66 ArPen for 410 IP
Greater Mark of Insight = +0.95 MPen for 410 IP

So, more IP-efficient to get the seperate marks, but takes up two runeslots instead of one.
4 of each (8 total) would give you +6.64 ArPen and +3.8 MPen for 3280 IP.
But 8 Marks of Destructions would give you +8 ArPen and +4.56 MPen for 6560 IP.


Hmm....I guess it boils down to, if you have IP/RP to burn (and run hybrid champs a lot), Destruction is the way to go. But it's a pricey option for not a huge amount of bonus.

[frostshotgg]

Unfortunately, mixed pen isn't effective because of the issue that, well, there are very few champs who can use it.

[Repulsion]

Actually, the fact that hybrid penetration is quite uncommon is why there are very few hybrid builds.

[penguinofhonor]

Teemo is seriously the best champion ever. Got a triple kill in the last team fight, but I deserved a penta. Damn Rammus and Graves stealing my last hits. Graves spent most of his time CC'd, too.

[frostshotgg]

No, that's putting the cart before the horse. The key issue is that hybridization doesn't get force multipliers. AD gets crit and as, AP gets AP on everything, even tank items, as well as rabadons. Hybrid doesn't get anything, except for multipliers built into champions, which riot has slowly but surely phased out. Jax got tanky as fuck, and had insane ratios. Even then he still got mostly ap instead of ad and ap like intended, at least post gunblade nerf. Kayle got ap for building ad and vise versa. She lost that passive, though, and now she can't be hybrid. Alkali gets great ratios and that passive, but even she can't really hybrid well. That leaves no hybrids.

[penguinofhonor]

They just need to put Kayle's old passive on an item.

[frostshotgg]

That's not happening because Riot decided they don't like passives that double up stats like vlad and xer

[Knirisk]

No, that's putting the cart before the horse. The key issue is that hybridization doesn't get force multipliers. AD gets crit and as, AP gets AP on everything, even tank items, as well as rabadons. Hybrid doesn't get anything, except for multipliers built into champions, which riot has slowly but surely phased out. Jax got tanky as fuck, and had insane ratios. Even then he still got mostly ap instead of ad and ap like intended, at least post gunblade nerf. Kayle got ap for building ad and vise versa. She lost that passive, though, and now she can't be hybrid. Alkali gets great ratios and that passive, but even she can't really hybrid well. That leaves no hybrids.

I would consider getting hybrid pen on Jax, but probably just Jax alone. Triforce is pretty much standard on Jax and gives both AP and AD, and a good portion of Jax's damage comes from Grandmaster's Might and Empower. I'm not sure what else I build on Jax because it's usually different each time, but I do build Wit's End, Gunblade, and Rageblade. Actually, come to think of it, I grab Phage+Vamp scepter into Triforce/Hextech Revolver usually, so maybe it's better to just get MPen since I don't grab much bonus AD.

[penguinofhonor]

That's not happening because Riot decided they don't like passives that double up stats like vlad and xer

They don't like them on champions who just get them for free. They're fine with things like Atma's Impaler or where you have to make choices to get it, and the passive can be incorporated into a gold cost. And really, this item would just be hybrid deathcap. Price it as such, and then bam! Hybrid exponential stat item.

Also, people forget Skarner when they're talking about hybrids. I just went 15/2/10 as him. He's still pretty good. This Xerath got super fed but I just sorta ignored his lightning and ran up to him and killed him.

[Frumple]

There's... several heroes I wouldn't mind some mixed pen on (I'd think Mundo, poppy, and udyr off the top of my head... maybe grag-whatever. Of the ones I've played, anyway. Maybe Varus, too. Probably a few others.), primarily ones that are mostly AD but with some hefty chunks of magic damage thrown in there because of a damage conversion skill or magic AoE or whatever. There's been a few that just don't benefit enough from AP to hybridize, but do have some hefty (or at least noticeable) sources of magic damage. Or th'other way around.

Mpen lets you get a little extra from their magic damage, but it's not something you'd want to give up arpen or AD or whatever for... getting a bit of both sounds nice, really. Don't want to actually hybridize but do want to get some more oomph out of your magic damage, while still helping out your primary damage source? Seems like a good deal, t'this particular scrub.

[Jopax]

Can't forget Et if we're talking about hybrids.

Sure straight AD or AP is fun and effective to a point, but his ratios are such (and his types of damage) that hybridising is quite nice, start off with AD for early game advantage and after you finish Triforce you go for some nice AP (and extra utility with slows and shit) that further boosts your damage.

[Knirisk]

They don't like them on champions who just get them for free. They're fine with things like Atma's Impaler or where you have to make choices to get it, and the passive can be incorporated into a gold cost. And really, this item would just be hybrid deathcap. Price it as such, and then bam! Hybrid exponential stat item.

Quite frankly, a hybrid exponential stat item would require rebalancing of a whole slew of hybrid champions, such as Akali and Jax. Both of them scale well without exponential stat items (although, Akali likes a Deathcap). They'd be either ludicrous with a hybrid deathcap or they wouldn't ever purchase the hybrid deathcap. If the hybrid item is worth it, it'd probably be purchased on other champions such as Tristana, who has decent AP scaling in addition to the typical ranged AD scaling. The thing is: Deathcap and IE are the two largest multipliers of AP and AD. Critical strike is the AD equivalent of the Deathcap's 30% AP bonus. I actually read a DiffTheEnder article on RoG recently on the effectiveness of crit. chance runes, which was surprisingly high, especially lategame (although the article did not compare ArPen runes versus crit chance, just crit. chance versus AD versus AS). Now imagine mixing those two huge multipliers. Hybrid champs would have to be gimped so early game just to make up for the late game potential scaling of IE/PD/hybrid Deathcap/defensive AP items (which are also utility), barring a huge item rebalance.

Of course, this is all speculation and subject to the specific circumstances (Jax nerf, Akali nerf, etc.), but if the hybrid item is worth it, it will be bought on every hybrid champion ever (and maybe a few other champions). If the hybrid item is not powerful enough, it won't be bought ever. Just look at what happened to the Hextech Gunblade.

[RedKing]

See, I tend to do really, really well with my hybrid MF. Better so than flat AD MF. Part of it is my playstyle (using that E to farm like a boss), and part of it is catching people off-guard. They see MF, they think AD, they build armor and neglect MR. Then they're left wondering why the heck that AoE is chewing through them so hard. Plus her ult gets bonuses from both.

Teemo's another that I could see doing very well with mixed pen. And I don't play him that much, but I'd think Kassadin would be another.

Yes, they're probably less effective on paper than a min-maxed "pure" AP or AD, but I think that's offset by the fact that the enemy has to worry about two defensive stats. Plus I feel like it's more versatile, easier to tweak towards one or the other as the situation dictates.

Oh, and I rush a Gunblade pretty much right after boots with most hybrids champs. Yeah, it's probably overpriced for what you get, but I like it. Plus the item chain synergizes well -- lifesteal to get early sustain, then Hextech Revolver to get AP and spellvamp (for a bit more sustain), then finish out the rest. Provides a good foundation from which I can lean AP or AD as desired.

[Knirisk]

Okay, this is off the topic of hybrid, but Leona, man. Is there anything she can't do? (besides hold a solo lane, I mean )

I've been playing Twisted Treeline recently, and I discovered that, even there, CC is so much better than damage. Originally, I believed that a good balance between CC and damage was key. I believed that you could even skimp out on a bit of CC for damage.

I was wrong. Leona is still amazing. One of these days, I absolutely must get Nautilus. I understand that Leona is not as tournament-worthy as Blitzcrank, Nautilus, Alistar, or Taric, but damn, if she doesn't wreck the unranked queue.

[baruk]

 Semi-final day at Gamescom, the first one is Moscow 5 versus Fanatic.RC:
http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_lol
Game one:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 Soaz tried Jayce against Shen again at top lane, but it didn't work so well this time, starting strong, but losing several one vs. one fights over the course of the game. Despite getting first blood, Fanatic couldn't snowball their early advantage, and got outfarmed and outfought - a crucial midgame sequence of battles saw the kill score swing from 2-1 to Fanatic to 7-2 in favour of M5. A two man baron by M5 (level 14 Lee Sin with Wriggles, supported by Sona) went unnoticed and enabled their final push to ace Fanatic and finish the game. Final kills: 17-5 Moscow 5. Alex Ich's teleport Ryze was MVP, finishing with a 7/0/5 score.

Game two:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 M5 went for a familiar late game comp with Karthus and Jax, Fanatic RC went for the ultimate team fight comp - Zyra, Rumble, Leona, Graves and Alistar. M5 had the edge early on, but sure enough, the first team fight at Dragon swung things strongly in the favour of Fanatic, getting the ace for only 2 losses after the Zyra and Leona ultimates hit most of the enemy team - and this story would be repeated for almost every subsequent battle, allowing Fanatic to level the series. Final kills were 30-16 to Fanatic.

Game three:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 M5 take the series, even after the controversial pick of Xin Zhao in top lane against a Malphite. Alex Ich's Ryze was dominant once again, this time picking up a deathfire grasp.

 The other semi-final is SK Gaming vs. Clg.eu.
Game one:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 If SK's Alistar smite stealing the first blue buff was unfortunate for Clg.eu, losing the red buff to a Gangplank Parrley was a calamity. Somehow they never quite recovered, and would continue to lose their buffs throughout the game. Kevin's Gangplank had a strong start against Wickd's Shen in bot lane, since, along with the red, he could start with his own side's blue  - he would before long become terrifying especially after picking up a few kills and assists with his ultimate.

Game two/three:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 Very close for the first half hour or so, with a slight lead for Clg.eu. The crucial moment was a disastrous Baron attempt by Clg - after killing Udyr, they went for it, but a combination of Nunu, Gangplank and Orianna ultimates cut them to pieces where they stood. MVP was Ocelot's Orianna, finishing the game with over 600 AP, with a huge influence in every team fight. No third game necessary. SK now face Moscow 5 in the final, whilst Clg.eu and Fanatic battle it out for thrid place, and the last qualification spot for the season 2 championships.