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[baruk]

Yeah... at level 18, most glass ad cannons will be lifestealing at least 3x the rate the that ignite is dealing them damage.  Have you never seen one of them refill their entire health bar with 3 attacks?

If things are that bad, you should be throwing the kitchen sink at the AD carry - as Mundo, if I'm still making the enemy team use summoners and cooldowns on me instead of my team, then I'm just doing my job! In any case the lifesteal counts as a healing effect, so it takes the 50% hit from ignite too.

[Frumple]

So, trying to make up for the (seemingly) comparatively anemic physdam on Mundo (via atmas, masochism) is a good idea? I'm wondering mostly because, again, the vast majority of my damage (just with sorc boots for mpen and maybe zeke's, if I get that far, and to the tune of about a 3-5:1 ratio) is coming from magic damage... it seems, if I was trying to bump damage output, I'd be going for that? Maybe the numbers from eating creep waves it throwing it off? I still, usually, don't spend much time in actual auto-attack range, though... which I guess is what building some ms is for, hrm.

What I'm seeing/theorycrafting is that he can do a good chunk of physdam*, if he builds for it, but he gets more from building to support the spinnies and cleaver.

I guess the game changes considerably, numbers wise, once you actually start getting to the point people have full masteries and rune pages, heh.

*I guess, heh... I haven't actually built a physdam leaning Mundo yet. Probably should try, I suppose. I'm thinking... what, d.shield -> lucid or swift boots**, warmogs, then frozen-> Atma -- maybe stick a zeke in between, I like that thing so far -- and go from there?
**Merc treads seem kinda' redundant on Mundo -- you've already got a pair in the lvl5 spinnies, at least as far as tenacity goes.

[SalmonGod]

Yeah... at level 18, most glass ad cannons will be lifestealing at least 3x the rate the that ignite is dealing them damage.  Have you never seen one of them refill their entire health bar with 3 attacks?

If things are that bad, you should be throwing the kitchen sink at the AD carry - as Mundo, if I'm still making the enemy team use summoners and cooldowns on me instead of my team, then I'm just doing my job! In any case the lifesteal counts as a healing effect, so it takes the 50% hit from ignite too.

That's not "that bad".  That's just how late game is.  The team that most successfully stuns and bursts down the enemy super-carry wins.  This is most of the reason that ignite won't really matter to them.  They're going to hide behind their bodyguards and shoot you down.  If you can force your way through and disrupt them at all before they shred your team, you've usually already won.

As Mundo in a team fight, you're either acting as one of the people shielding your carry or you're chasing down the enemy carry like a demon.  Mundo, and only Mundo, is prevented from successfully performing either of these roles by an ignite.  Other tanky characters have defensive abilities that prevent them from taking damage, plus dashes and/or hard cc abilities that help them to hold the line or force their way through it.  If those people get the enemy to waste their ignites and such, then yes it is a win for them, because they can still continue to fulfill their role.  Mundo doesn't have any of those things.  He just soaks damage and brute forces his way around.  When he draws those anti-heals, he's cut off from the only thing that allows him to fulfill his role, and is usually forced out of participation.  Yes, he prevented those things from being used on his teammates, but that's the only thing he did, which is a pathetic accomplishment.

[SalmonGod]

So, trying to make up for the (seemingly) comparatively anemic physdam on Mundo (via atmas, masochism) is a good idea? I'm wondering mostly because, again, the vast majority of my damage (just with sorc boots for mpen and maybe zeke's, if I get that far, and to the tune of about a 3-5:1 ratio) is coming from magic damage... it seems, if I was trying to bump damage output, I'd be going for that? Maybe the numbers from eating creep waves it throwing it off? I still, usually, don't spend much time in actual auto-attack range, though... which I guess is what building some ms is for, hrm.

What I'm seeing/theorycrafting is that he can do a good chunk of physdam*, if he builds for it, but he gets more from building to support the spinnies and cleaver.

I guess the game changes considerably, numbers wise, once you actually start getting to the point people have full masteries and rune pages, heh.

*I guess, heh... I haven't actually built a physdam leaning Mundo yet. Probably should try, I suppose. I'm thinking... what, d.shield -> lucid or swift boots**, warmogs, then frozen-> Atma -- maybe stick a zeke in between, I like that thing so far -- and go from there?
**Merc treads seem kinda' redundant on Mundo -- you've already got a pair in the lvl5 spinnies, at least as far as tenacity goes.

Yes, area damage to creeps really throws off the numbers.  I can almost guarantee that you're not doing most of that magic damage to enemy champions, especially when you already admit to spending very little time in auto-attack range.  The fire barely extends beyond that. 

Mundo's AD is actually really strong.  By mid-game, you can have Masochism almost permanently active and it gives you a flat 100 AD, plus 1 per 1% of health missing.  If you're at half health, you're doing an extra 150 damage.  With how long it takes to kill you, that's a lot of extra damage.  With just a single phantom dancer, you hit hard enough to worry anybody and are very difficult to escape from (or pin down).

I build the hp regen amulet on Mundo first, and try to buy a giant's belt and lvl 1 boots on my first shopping trip.  Warmogs is almost always my first item.  Everything past that is purely situational, but the next thing after Warmogs is usually chain vest/negatron cloak, depending on how much trouble each damage type is giving me. I'm actually fairly squishy until I finish Warmogs/armor or resistance, and rely heavily on cleavers for lane control.  They do great damage early on.  Later, they're more of a CC tool than anything.  The same with your burning agony.  It does enough damage that it's worth putting on in any fight, but it's not enough to be a deciding factor.  It's mainly for the CC reduction so you can go where you pleases. 

The AP ratio is also horrible, so AP is a bad investment on Mundo.  The only reason I take Rylai's sometimes is when I'm fighting people who are super sticky or super speedy.  No melee character (except Yi) can land an attack on you while you're running away with that CC aura on.  The ability to disengage at will is essential for Mundo.  For chasing people, Frozen Mallet is better -- more hp and damage output, especially if you're building Atma's.

It's also a horrible horrible idea to put points in Burning Agony early, because you don't have the regen to sustain it.  In pure hp investment vs damage output, you're much better off maximizing cleaver and masochism first.

[baruk]

  He just soaks damage and brute forces his way around.  When he draws those anti-heals, he's cut off from the only thing that allows him to fulfill his role, and is usually forced out of participation.  Yes, he prevented those things from being used on his teammates, but that's the only thing he did, which is a pathetic accomplishment.

 If it's late game and, as Mundo, you're getting focus during team fights, then you've done your job well.
 If ignites are getting burnt on you, you've done your job.
 If enemy gold is being spent on Morello's tome and Executioner's calling, you've done your job.

 Ideally, then of course you are getting pentakills every fight! But I'm focusing on the nuances and other minor factors that people seem to think are a strike against Mundo. Forcing the enemy to spend resources to deal with the tank is actually a positive outcome, along the same lines as the argument that forcing a Mundo to buy a quicksilver sash is a minor victory since it delays, or takes the place of, his force of nature.

[Micro102]

No one is going to use ignite on mundo until he uses his ulti, meaning low on health, meaning he is gonna get killed.

Mundo just isn't a good tank. He has a skillshot slow, that's it. His main role is to be a pest to one of their carries.

[SalmonGod]

If it's late game and, as Mundo, you're getting focus during team fights, then you've done your job well.

This right here is my point, though.  Other tanks have survivability based on shields or high natural resistances so that their survivability is consistent, and they also have other ways to contribute.  Pure tanks all have powerful CC abilities.  Tanky DPS all have some sort of dash or pull or something that allows them to bully high-priority targets and break up the enemy's coordination.  Mundo fits somewhere in between these two roles.

Every other character in the game that fits either role does so by having contributions beyond simply drawing focus.  Mundo's only other contribution is the ability to charge recklessly through the enemy line, based purely on his survivability.  Also when they do draw focus, they do so consistently.   By comparison, a single debuff reduces Mundo's survivability by at least 1/3, and it can come from 8 different sources, one of which is almost guaranteed to be present in multiples every game.  If drawing focus as a tank is a good thing, then his ability to do so is wildly inconsistent in comparison to other tanks.  You can take Quicksilver Sash to mitigate the problem, but this still reduces his stature in comparison to other tanks, who can benefit more consistently from stronger items without having to cover for such a severe weakness.

So yes.  I suppose you're technically correct that if you are drawing ignites and focus as Mundo, then you are doing your job.  My point is that debuff causes you to do the job less effectively than any other character would.

[penguinofhonor]

It's also a horrible horrible idea to put points in Burning Agony early, because you don't have the regen to sustain it.  In pure hp investment vs damage output, you're much better off maximizing cleaver and masochism first.

*unless you're jungling

But I guess we're not talking about that. Who lanes with Mundo, though?

[SalmonGod]

Well... I can't jungle.  Don't know why.  Just can't do it.  I've tried a few times, and it just doesn't click with me.  I have a great intuitive feel for the flow of laning, though.  Mundo can rock any lane.

[Cheeetar]

It's also a horrible horrible idea to put points in Burning Agony early, because you don't have the regen to sustain it.  In pure hp investment vs damage output, you're much better off maximizing cleaver and masochism first.

*unless you're jungling

But I guess we're not talking about that. Who lanes with Mundo, though?

I actually only play Mundo as top. I've tried him jungling before, but I can't really do it. I think I do fairly well on top (considering how badly I usually play other lanes with other champions).

[SalmonGod]

Spoiler: hmmm.... (click to show/hide)

[Exerosp]

Guys, isn't Yi and Trynd the "Easy champs"? (the ones that are easy to play/win with. Also Xin prepatch.) can some of you name am easy AP champ? Veigar, Annie?

[Dariush]

can some of you name am easy AP champ? Veigar, Annie?

Definitely not Veigar. I'd say Kassadin, mostly because I could pick him up and start dominating everyone.

[SalmonGod]

Le Blanc?

[Exerosp]

can some of you name am easy AP champ? Veigar, Annie?

Definitely not Veigar. I'd say Kassadin, mostly because I could pick him up and start dominating everyone.

Kassadin has a somewhat steep learning curve, since he just doesn't spam his abilities like Veigar. But yeah, Leblonk is one of those champs too, since only a friend of mine has played her, but stopped when he reached 30 or something.

How come it gets so boring to play Yi and Trynd? Is it because it's so easy to gain dat IP? I mean seriously, unless they've got some heavy CC and you're trolling, you've got to win. Just dash and auto attack with 1.3crits each, and then get 30% of that back.