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[umiman]

Well, regardless. I think we can all agree that the defense tree is super powerful right now and the offense tree is kinda crappy for mages still (but not as bad as before).

[Bluerobin]

Indeed.

Edit: Oh what a terrible way to start a new page (with whatever posts/page setting I'm using). To make up for that a bit, I offer this website. It's a lot like Leaguecraft's champion builder except it'll help you change your in-game recommended items to the ones in your build, too.

[penguinofhonor]

Well, regardless. I think we can all agree that the defense tree is super powerful right now and the offense tree is kinda crappy for mages still (but not as bad as before).

Maybe the first tiers, but not the later ones. The low % reductions are only useful with large amounts of resistances, as is the final mastery. Basically the first half of the tree is really appealing to everyone, yeah, but not the later stuff.

[Graven]

I bought Vayne because she rocks, first game on Dominion with her a solid, indisputable loss. Second game ->


What followed was a streak of 7 wins after which I stopped so as not to ruin the magic.

[umiman]

Well, regardless. I think we can all agree that the defense tree is super powerful right now and the offense tree is kinda crappy for mages still (but not as bad as before).

Maybe the first tiers, but not the later ones. The low % reductions are only useful with large amounts of resistances, as is the final mastery. Basically the first half of the tree is really appealing to everyone, yeah, but not the later stuff.

This is not true. % reduction applies AFTER resistances, not before. So it's better the less resistances you have.

Edit: I just lost solo top to a Jarvan. I was full tank Olaf. We even killed him twice in lane but I still lost. I have no idea how it happened. We were both using cloth armour 5 pots. The only difference was I was 1 29 0 and he was 21 0 9. What I'm infer-ing is that offensive tree is superior to tank tree.

[penguinofhonor]

Well, regardless. I think we can all agree that the defense tree is super powerful right now and the offense tree is kinda crappy for mages still (but not as bad as before).

Maybe the first tiers, but not the later ones. The low % reductions are only useful with large amounts of resistances, as is the final mastery. Basically the first half of the tree is really appealing to everyone, yeah, but not the later stuff.

This is not true. % reduction applies AFTER resistances, not before. So it's better the less resistances you have.

It also makes less of a difference the less resistances you have. For instance, ignoring 1.5% of damage when you have 100 health is absolutely useless. Yeah, if you take a hit for 100 damage it'll be reduced to 98.5 while the tank with 50% reduction will get their 50 reduced to 49.25, but the reduction does more with the more damage you can take.

It's more understandable when you look at the total damage you can take rather than the individual hits you're taking.

Let's say you're a carry with 2000 effective HP. If you take enough damage to die, the 1.5% reduction will block 30 damage. If you're a tank with 5000 effective health, the 1.5% reduction will block 75 damage. It scales in effectiveness with the more damage you're soaking.

[umiman]

What are you on about?

Lets use bigger numbers for the sake of comprehension.

Suppose you have 50% damage reduction mastery:

You have Ashe with 0 armour take 100 damage. That damage was reduced to 50 damage.

You have a Rammus with 100 armour (and thus, 50% damage reduction). His armour will reduce the damage to 50. The effective damage reduction from the mastery then is only 25 of the remaining 50 damage.

Thus the actual damage being reduced from just the mastery is halved compared to if you had no resistances. It appears more because the armour is doing work but if you discounted the gold used to obtain the armour, then Rammus is actually worse of. This is why old Alistar with his 75% damage reduction ult could afford to be crazy even without any resistances.

It's a matter of utility. I'll give another example to illustrate.

You now have the 50% damage reduction mastery and 2000 gold:

Ashe buys 70 AD and takes 100 damage. She reduces it to 50 damage. Her total is 50 reduced damage and 70 AD.

Rammus buys 100 armour and takes 100 damage. He reduces it to 25 damage. His total is 75 reduced damage.

As you can see, if you calculate by worth of gold, Ashe is far better off even though her damage reduced is 33% less than Rammus. She spent her money more efficiently than Rammus.

Sure, at the end of the day it makes Rammus tankier and honestly Ashe wouldn't be taking such a mastery but the point should be pretty clear. When you have a %-based stat, you are statistically making it less cost-efficient by buying flat-based stats. You still get the benefit, but the benefit would be worth less gold than what it could normally be.

Edit: Just to emphasize. Just because it makes it less cost efficient doesn't mean you shouldn't be buying resistances on a tank... The mastery only gives a tiny amount after all, not 50%.

[eerr]

1.5% is literally just the same thing as 1.5 armour and mr.

Derrrrrrrrp.

A tiny fraction better vs penn and % penn, maybe.

[RedKing]

I just realized that I have not lost a single match since the patch came out. 

Am I getting that much better, or are the characters I'm playing just that much buffed? I even won matches where I was testing out new characters. (Maokai is not my guy. His ult is too tricky for me to coordinate)

Oh, and I cannot stress enough: Master Yi + Highlander + Improved Surge + Demolitionist mastery = Ultimate Tower Breaker. Also good for multi-killing, since Highlander cooldown resets if you get a champion kill while active. If I can get a support to heal/buff me, I can turn a failed gank into a total team wipe.

[penguinofhonor]

What are you on about?

Lets use bigger numbers for the sake of comprehension.

Suppose you have 50% damage reduction mastery:

You have Ashe with 0 armour take 100 damage. That damage was reduced to 50 damage.

You have a Rammus with 100 armour (and thus, 50% damage reduction). His armour will reduce the damage to 50. The effective damage reduction from the mastery then is only 25 of the remaining 50 damage.

Thus the actual damage being reduced from just the mastery is halved compared to if you had no resistances. It appears more because the armour is doing work but if you discounted the gold used to obtain the armour, then Rammus is actually worse of. This is why old Alistar with his 75% damage reduction ult could afford to be crazy even without any resistances.

It's a matter of utility. I'll give another example to illustrate.

You now have the 50% damage reduction mastery and 2000 gold:

Ashe buys 70 AD and takes 100 damage. She reduces it to 50 damage. Her total is 50 reduced damage and 70 AD.

Rammus buys 100 armour and takes 100 damage. He reduces it to 25 damage. His total is 75 reduced damage.

As you can see, if you calculate by worth of gold, Ashe is far better off even though her damage reduced is 33% less than Rammus. She spent her money more efficiently than Rammus.

Sure, at the end of the day it makes Rammus tankier and honestly Ashe wouldn't be taking such a mastery but the point should be pretty clear. When you have a %-based stat, you are statistically making it less cost-efficient by buying flat-based stats. You still get the benefit, but the benefit would be worth less gold than what it could normally be.

Edit: Just to emphasize. Just because it makes it less cost efficient doesn't mean you shouldn't be buying resistances on a tank... The mastery only gives a tiny amount after all, not 50%.

Have you seen a tank Alistar ulting? He's absolutely invulnerable. Old AP alistar wasn't ridiculous because % reduction is better without masteries, he was rediculous because he could effectively get 300 MR and armor. If you stack that bonus on top of armor, you get ridiculous tankiness, but the reason it's not done is because you only need to be so tanky. At a certain point, you're hard as hell to kill and the enemy team doesn't really care about specifics.

And tankiness is not measured in how much of an individual hit you're reducing, it's measured in how much damage you can soak before you die. Let's look at your bigger mastery again. The 50% one.

Ashe here has 1000 health and 25 armor. This gives her 20% reduction, so she effectively has 1250 health against physical damage. If she gets an additional 50% reduction, she can take 2500 unmitigated damage before dying. The 50% reduction mastery here is basically letting her take another 1250 damage.

Then we have rammus here with 2000 health and 100 armor. This gives him a 50% reduction so he effectively has 4000 health against physical damage. If he gets an additional 50% reduction, he can take 8000 unmitigated damage before dying. The 50% reduction mastery here is basically letting him take another 4000 damage.

[umiman]

If you can't understand gold value and diminishing returns, there's no helping you understanding this topic.

Edit:

Even more mastery confusion. I tried out roaming twitch with gold/10 quints and the gold masteries. I died 7 times (because Twitch sucks and I also suck at him) but even with just a philo stone, I had the same gold as our Ashe that had 217 farm. I only had 90 myself. So, this Twitch that died 7 times had a Wriggles, Black Cleaver, IE, boots, and Negatron Cloak.

I don't know what to make of this.

Not to mention I still don't understand how my Olaf lost to Jarvan at top lane.

It's gonna be a long while more before I get a good grasp of these new champion power levels. Hell, look at Udyr's new jungle clear time. 3:15! That's insane! That's a full minute shorter than what it used to be.

[eerr]

Pretty much the best way to never get caught by suprise is measuring people's gold exactly.


People worth massive gold are much more important to kill, while if you have alot of gold on your head moving in is a bad idea.

[cerapa]

If you can't understand gold value and diminishing returns, there's no helping you understanding this topic.

The only diminishing returns in the game are %pen(not sure about this one), dodge, MS and slows.

[umiman]

% penetration and % damage reduction are two sides of the same coin you numbnut. Also, every single stat in this game has diminishing returns. If not everyone would just stack one single stat forever and it'd be the optimal strategy.

[cerapa]

% penetration and % damage reduction are two sides of the same coin you numbnut.

Nope.

Just...nope.

EDIT:Also, everyone doesnt stack one stat not because diminishing returns, but INCREASING RETURNS, the more health you have, the better resists are, and the more resists you have, the better health is.
EDIT2:
And the more AS you have the better AD is and vice-versa.
And CDR and AP.