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[Flying Dice]

Early, yes. But late game a well-farmed Nasus with TF has what might be the highest single-target damage in the game short of a super-farmed Veigar ult against an AP caster or something. Or a pre-nerf/fix Nasus Q, back when Q stacks could crit.

[iceball3]

Maybe i am just needlessly complaining, but holy hell is it demoralizing to encounter skilled Assasins at my current elo (pre-ranked). If they get fed early,  everything just kind of falls apart as they instagib everything they touch, and laying any sort of CC on then becomes a delaying-the-innevitable tactic more than anything else. Maybe i am just not very good at the game, yet.

[Jopax]

Well... yeah...


Anyway, right now I'm playing Diana mid a lot, and I do alright whenever the other mid is melee, but I don't know how to lane against ranged casters.
I've tried just going all in every time I can, except that 1) doesn't always work, cuz sometimes they're stronger than you, and 2) leaves you open for a lot of ganks. As well as 3) they kill you, and you keep going in, they get pretty fed.
I've never tried going flask first. Would that be a good idea?

It heavily depends on your matchup. What my expirience with her on mid was is that you try and farm as safely as you can, dodging stuff or blocking it with W if you can't and tossing out an occasional poke their way. The goal is to survive to 6 and then try to all in if they're low enough from the poke, or just keep farming if they backed at some point.
Generally tho, most melee mids just gotta not die in their lane to win it. Farm safely if you can, ask for ganks if they're pushing and being agressive and poke back with your one ranged skill if possible. Diana is really good at this because not only is her Q pretty good at harassing once you get some mana regen going, her W really helps keep her safe from most poke and attempts to jump you by the other player. Then you hit six and jump their face whenever they try something stupid.

[iceball3]

So... don't feed them early?

In which case, if the respective laner is doing bad enough that a gank would be suicidal, then it's gg i guess :/

[Flying Dice]

Uh, yeah about that. I've also had some problems with her build. I mainly go luden's echo/ zhonya's hourglass, and then get Nashor's tooth. I'm thinking of taking athene's for the early mana problems as well as the MR, but I don't really want to rush it, as it makes you not that bursty.
Usually, in a good lane, I can kill them, but then lose out on some of the benefits as I have to immediately recall afterwards due to lack of mana.

No, no, no. Zhonya's is pretty important on her, but it's almost never your first item (except VS. a Zed or similar).

Athene's is at a low point right now and you'll have MR in your build anyways; you're playing an assassin and would want Morellonomicon... except both are a waste of an item slot. Get a MP regen charm or two during your first item, that should be enough as long as you don't spam skillshots. Here's your core build: Nashor's, Abyssal, Lich Bane, Zhonya's, Pen Boots, Your Choice. What you get after that depends on the situation. Get Zhonya's second if the enemy mid is AD but not Zed and you're scared.

Granted, you don't actually need to get Athene's/Morello at all to have enough MP. If you have MP issues, pick up a Faerie charm or two during your first item and get Lich Bane second. You've already got 20% CDR from Nashor's + 5% from masteries and your CDs are low anyways; Diana's not terribly MP hungry as long as you choose your casts wisely; your Doran's or flask should carry you through early lane phase easily.

Diana is like Nasus in that respect, actually. Her key ability (Q) is fairly low cost (55MP), and her ult isn't bad either (50/65/80). Her W? It starts bad and only gets worse (60-100). Her E is also high (70).

If you're running out of MP, you're probably spamming abilities. Don't try to block enemy skillshots with W, the shield is tiny at low levels; train yourself to predict and dodge better instead. Don't use W and E every time you fight. W does minor damage and offers minor protection during lane phase; the vast majority of your damage is in your Q, R, and passive -- the last in particular is why Nashor's should pretty much always be your first item: your passive has the highest AP ratio (and eventually the highest base damage, too!) of your kit. Only use E if you absolutely need it to secure a kill.

There's another trick to learn: prep your passive before you trade/all-in. Make sure your first AA on the enemy laner triggers it.

Also Luden's is kinda shit for her. She's only got one slot to spare. Deathcap if the enemy team is full of squishies, Void Staff if they're stacking resistances, GA/tank item if you suck and die a lot.

[eerr]

It should be noted that abyssal scepter is almost universally better than voidstaff.
That is, assuming it gave no magic resistance.

[quinnr]

It should be noted that abyssal scepter is almost universally better than voidstaff.
That is, assuming it gave no magic resistance.

I haven't really done the maths, but I can see it being better on a lot of champions...but what's the range on it like? If I recall correctly, it's not that huge, so anyone with long skillshots probably isn't going to get a whole ton out of it.

[frostshotgg]

Void Staff beats Abyssal for Mpen at 61 MR. That's 8 MR over what all melees get for free. Almost any champ with MR runes and/or one mr item will hit that benchmark. Abyssal isn't even close to universally better than Void Staff, and very, very frequently is worse. Abyssal's advantage is that A, it's better as an earlier pick up, and B, it has magic resist. Generally, ranged mages have much more need for cdr/mana early, whereas melees have low costs/cds so they can afford to build more damage sooner. Coincidentally, melee mages also tend to be more vulnerable to harass and need tankiness, whereas ranged mages should rarely be getting hit in the first place.

[Flying Dice]

I've never gone Nashor's first, neither have I gotten Lich Bane in lane. The only time I actually bought that was to replace boots... (as it gives movespeed).
I just don't feel like the attack speed from Nashors is that useful when going for kills. I mean, it's good, but not enough to replace your burst. But the Cdr is definitely needed, so I almost always take it second.
I usually go full burst + Nashors. I got Abyssal once against a Fizz, but that was pretty much it... from my perspective, flat AP is at least as good on her as other more specialized items. Her combo still uses AP rather efficiently, and Q + R is up ever 3-4 seconds.
Building flat AP makes her pretty strong early. Can I have a reason as too why I shouldn't take Zhonya's? Tank stats are never bad, as too migitate AD poke.

Another thing is... Rylai's Crystal Scepter is now a reasonably strong item on mages, due to giving them 100 AP, which is now the same as Zhonya's or Luden's Echo. And specifically for Diana, it makes her stickier due to not have to use E for the slow, which saves mana.

About mana...
Mainly, I'm running out of mana after 1 long fight (2-3 Q+R), or 2 combos. Which is pretty good when you look at it, but it means you have to recall pretty much right after. Especially because after/if I get an early lead, I'm jumping on them every time I can land my Q, and they aren't in range of their tower.
And my build + playstyle is probably why I have mana problems. My build gives me full AP, meaning multiple combo's are more effective/ quicker than a whole bunch of auto's which use less mana. Add that to using the full combo any time I can...

Also, for the tip: Doesn't work unless you can get off auto's. Also, they're usually a bit more cautious of you, which makes it harder to land a Q. Surprise is better than a charged passive, in my opinion.

And... I still have some trouble playing against, say, an Annie, due to not being able to dodge the Q, and frequent auto's to poke. By the time I get 6 I'm usually too low to all in, and it's even harder to farm cuz once they get their ult, it's easier for them to chain a stun into an ult into a kill.

Again, Nashor's is core because it perfectly synergizes with the entirety of her kit. Her passive's empowered AA is her single highest damage ability. The only way to get away with flat AP is if you can reliably 100-0 anyone with Q+R+W+R (hint: you can't do it early, which means you can't get fed enough to do it late). Nashor's gives you a bit of sustained damage to weave between combos as well as enough extra AS that you can get your passive off quickly even if you didn't prep it. The AP boost it got recently only makes it more attractive.

As an aside, Nashor's is highly gold-efficient even if you have no AP from any other sources, and only grows better as you gain more. Zhonya's is barely gold-efficient; Luden's flat out isn't.

On another note, Nashor's also helps with mana problems. Those AAs hurt even early, and you can get more passives off, which means you use fewer abilities to do damage. It also means you can waveclear without using Q, thanks to the increased damage and the AoE on your passive.

I didn't say not to build Zhonya's, I said to only built it first against a Zed, and second only if the enemy laner is AD. If neither of those cases are true, you don't need it until mid-late game teamfights, which means it's safe to build as a third or fourth item, especially now that the AP has been nerfed.

Re: Abyssal's passive range: It's 700 units. For reference, Diana's maximum Q range is 830. The only situation where I wouldn't buy one is if the enemy team had no high-damage casters.

Lich Bane also synergizes well: it boosts your initial burst, helps you catch, gives you more mana to work with, and also helps you take down towers once you push the enemy laner out of lane.

Re: Prepping passive making opponents wary: And? Either they're dumb and let you get the extra burst, or they back off and let you zone them. That's one thing that I notice a lot of people not understanding: you don't need to kill the enemy laner to make them useless. If they're scared of you, ward the river and stay in an aggressive trading position with your passive active as much as possible. If they try to CS (and aren't Xerath or something who can do it from half the map away), walk farther to keep them back. You probably won't be able to keep them out of exp range in mid, but you can prevent them from farming.

Annie is an example of why Abyssal is good, and of the value of knowing when to play safe. That's the sort of situation where you don't try to kill at all unless they're stupid, you just farm as best you can and ask for ganks, then roam for kills once you have an item or two. If you really want to try for kills, stay safe until 6 and wait for opportunities. With Annie, that's when she's been holding a stun and has just used it to farm. Her ratios and base damage are higher than yours, so you can only fight when some of her abilities are on CD and she doesn't have stun (preferably also only after you've built MR).

Wanting to build straight AP on Diana is silly for a couple reasons. Champions like Zed and LB can build straight damage because they have escapes. Xerath and Vel'Koz can do it because they've got really long ranges and plenty of CC. Veigar can do it because his sole contribution is landing a good stun and deleting one enemy. You can't; you have mobility, but it's entirely dedicated to offense. Once a Diana goes in, either she kills the enemy or she dies. That's why you need some defensive stats, that's why you need the extra damage from Nashor's -> passive and Lich Bane. If you build straight AP and go in during a teamfight, you're going to get off one Q+R+W and die. Do you also forgo scaling MR blues because you want more AP? No, of course not.

Diana's sort of unusual, in that while she's technically an assassin, a lot of her damage isn't frontloaded. You need time to get your passive out, time for your W's spheres to all rotate around, time to land a second R. If you're squishy, you don't get that time, which means you're losing out on a lot of damage. It doesn't matter how much AP you have if you only hit the enemy with Q+R+one W sphere. Nashor's helps with the passive while also giving other valuable stats. Lich Bane gives some extra initial burst and followup burst after your second R as well. Abyssal + Zhonya's gives you enough resistances to not die instantly plus a chance to refresh CDs after your second round of burst after your second R.

If you're just going to build AP, at least do your team a favor and rush a Deathcap instead of Luden's.

[frostshotgg]

I hate to break it to you, but Nashor's really isn't a good use of an item slot on Diana, and definitely not first. More AP for more burst is all she needs.

[UXLZ]

I thought we were talking about Gale and I was going to agree with you, but then I found out we were talking about Diana.

[Flying Dice]

I hate to break it to you, but Nashor's really isn't a good use of an item slot on Diana, and definitely not first. More AP for more burst is all she needs.

I hate to break it to you, but you shouldn't take all your build advice from Mobafire and Lolking.

It's not a universal buy, but it's reliable in the context of SoloQ, since you're going to be constantly in situations where you're ahead but your team is losing (or where you're losing collectively). Scarra explained where it fits in an interview back in 2013, since you seem to get your build advice from popular opinion:

This week we saw you build Nashor's Tooth on Diana, which surprised many people. Can you tell us why you went for this item?

Scarra: Nashor's tooth was an item I did not plan on building except in certain situations. It just so happened that against a lux + nidalee solo + a jarvan jungle, I didn't see a need to rush zhonyas or abyssal or deathcap and decided I wanted the split push + consistent pressure that nashors provided. I actually should be thanking our player D Kenace for recommending this item to me because he ended up doing a lot of early testing with the item and then explained his thought process to me after a set of scrims.

It's not going to be as big a boost to your burst as some other items are (more so now, though, that it's 80 AP), but it's great for trading, 1v1ing, and as above, pressuring lanes. SoloQ isn't about your ability to delete a single champion in a single crucial fight most of the time, but rather about your ability to grind down the enemy team and base in a way most random teams aren't prepared to deal with. Super burst is nice, but it doesn't win games except in the rare cases where everyone's full build 50 minutes in and one successful teamfight means victory.

From another perspective, the difference between LB and Nash is burst vs. sustained damage. I go both because Diana's build is naturally slightly tanky, and because the spellblade proc helps with splitting. Again, her passive is her highest source of damage, and it can be triggered much more often than her Q+R+R if you build correctly.

[frostshotgg]

Rushing deathcap is almost as good as rushing Luden's in a matchup where you don't need/want abyssal. That's not a particularly uncommon scenario these days so it's not too bad. But Luden's is almost always better, just by virtue of letting you clear waves much more efficiently.

[Jopax]

Yeah, but Diana doesn't really need the Luden waveclear since she can clear stuff pretty damn quickly already, heck, I'd wager that Nashor is just as good for a lower price because it allows for quicker passive procs which just as easily clear waves but without any mana usage. And while the movespeed is good you get it from Lichbane anyways. So Deathcap is a better pick imho because it gives you raw AP which will help with waveclear just as much as the Luden proc would but this time you get more AP for your other stuff too.

[frostshotgg]

There's an enormous difference between needing 1 Q and three autoattacks and tossing out a Q and killing the casters. You need something on the order of 350 AP to be able to kill casters with 1 Q by the time you can reasonably have that amount. Ludens lets you do it pretty much at level 9. Deathcap puts it off for another item or two.