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[UXLZ]

I find that comparison to be naturally illogical, UXLZ's problem with Fizz's E is that it blocks all attacks, including skillshots like Ezreal's ult, and point and click like Veigar's ult. Plus Kat needs to have a target to shumpo to, and Zed has to use his damage amplification ability to move like that (and zed/kat will still get Taric stunned).

Maybe not the best comparison, a better one could be something like... Like... What would be a good comparison, actually? Vlad's trollpool? That offers a lot less mobility and a lot less damage. There are four abilities that break stuff like that, Elise's Rappel, Vlad's Trollpool, Zed's Ult, and Fizz's E (unless I'm forgetting something?).
I'm not actually sure about Elise's rappel... I'd swear I've seen them get killed by tower shots while rappelling.

But given UXLZ's statements about Ezreal's E, I'm not certain whether he'll actually get the point about how important positioning is.

Once again with the sarcastic personal attacks. That's not going to get you anywhere, you know?

How to play vs. assassins after lane phase:

1. Wards.
2. Positioning.

How to play vs. literally everyone in the game, you mean.

If you've really got trouble dealing with Playful/Trickster (or Vlad's trollpool), here's what I suggest (and what I did): Play the champion. That's the best way to get a firm grasp on the limitations of any ability, in regards to range, cooldown, &c. One of the best things that ever happened to me was getting a mirror-match in a normal right after I bought Fizz, taught me a damn lot about how he works. Incidentally, now that so much of his Q and W damage has been nerfed, Playful/Trickster is pretty much going to be required for Fizz to get off a good burst now, so that's forcing players to use it to engage rather than to get out after engaging

Hence my support for the nerf.

Interesting to note is that Vlad's Trollpool's base cooldown is 6 seconds higher than Fizz's E at rank 5. At rank 1 it's 10.
By the way, the base cooldown of Fizz's E at rank 5 is 8 seconds. With 30% CDR it's 5.6 seconds.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Jiokuy]

I was going to make a post about how Fizz's E is just too cheap for him to use(compared to similar skills), but to be honest, you're right Penguin. He is melee, and that's the cost for his E. Ultimately, these changes are in line with Riot's attempts to shift the meta. With the removal of DFG, and the stated intention to move Kat into more a highly mobile magic damage fighter, changing Fizz's skills from upfront burst to slightly more sustained damage is quite logical. Is it a nerf to Fizz, possibly, quite likely actually. Will it open new Fizz build paths and allow for more diverse counterplay, (outside of the positioning balance game) who knows? I think that's what Riot was going for though.

And, while the damage no longer amps over itself, it does apply instantly, which can be very very big when it comes to assassinating targets. It seems like fizz might move into the fighter role, in a position to clean up damaged bruisers, and pseudo assassinate carries. The reduced burst will require Fizz to stay in battle for longer if he wants kills, and that is clearly Riot's goal here. Is that a nerf to Fizz, hell yes. Does riot want to move away from the 100-0 with little to no risk assassination methods that are currently around, yeah, yeah they do. Will new Fizz suck? In terms of being able to singlehandedly (and without significant defense) remove 1-2 members of the enemy team from the game when fed, likely. Also Fizz has like a 70% ban rate down here in gold. I would love to actually get to play Fizz sometimes. TBH I get the feeling this will improve some of Fizz's mechanics, even if he won't be an hyper assassin anymore.

Time will show how bad this possible nerf will be, but for now it's all PBE speculation, so who the heck knows what the final numbers will be. Plus it's not like fizz is Eve, someone at Riot likes him, I doubt he will get nerfed so hard he falls to subpar levels.

PS: I was agreeing with you UXLZ, my apologies for being unclear.

[UXLZ]

Yep, Fizz is melee, so he definitely gets good escape/maneuverability skills, but I do honestly feel like his is too good, at least with his current kit. After the nerf it may be justifiable.

I wasn't disagreeing with you either, but come to think of it, Kat probably wasn't the best choice of comparison.

[Jiokuy]

See that's the misunderstanding.

You said:
Ability A (E.G. Ezreal Ult) is negating by Mobility ability C(E.G. Kat Shumpo),
and Ability B(E.G. Veigar Ult) is negated by Mobility Ability D(E.G. Fizz E).
Therefore Fizz E is stronger.

Demons Said:
Mobility Abilities C & D both negate abilities, therefore they are the same.

My statement was intended to be:
But Ability D (Fizz E) works on Abilities A & B, where Ability C only works on Ability A.
It was assumed in UXLZ's posts. And in fact, Ability D is actually better at avoiding Ability A than Ability C is (no significant cost or requirement to cast, aside from potential loss of damage).

I was however very tired when I said that, so was not clear enough. My appologies.

[UXLZ]

Yah, that was my point, but I think that Kat's Shunpo in particular was a bat example since it both requires a target and is truly instantaneous.

[DemonOfWrath]

That's a decent recap of my statements, but I want to elaborate a bit since I think some points I made were missed:
Mobility skill A (shunpo) can negate skill C (skillshots).
Mobility skill B (Fizz E) can negate skills C and D (point-and-clicks).
Rather than get all knotted up about B blocking more, you should be treating using D against Fizz as you should when using C against Kat. SOMETHING is going to be the best defensive ability in the given situation. To illustrate I'll bring up something again I think got missed in my last post.

In addition, there's skill C (Yasuo wind wall) that can negate C and D (and E (AoEs) actually) thrown at anyone, but requires them to be projectiles. In a lot of situations, that is functionally the same as B, or better because it protects the whole team.

My overall point is that rather than tunneling only on the fact on what the ability can do, it's more useful to focus on how to work around the opponent having that ability. You aren't going to Ez ult a Kat and not expect the prospect of her shunpoing, you also won't throw a big cooldown projectile ult at Yasuo unless you know wind wall is down, you won't Zed ult someone with Zhonya's, why are you going to Veigar ult a Fizz with E up? (Or, you aren't going to feel safe under your tower against a Leblanc either, so just back off and recall.)

The actual champions I've used as examples can be interchanged pretty freely with the overall point being the same. There's a lot of defensive or evasive abilities in the game.

Of course I should note I'm of the opinion that there isn't really anything that's super OP in the game. That isn't saying there isn't stuff that needs to be nerfed (I'd bet money Azir will get nerfed sometime soon as people really start mastering him), but there isn't anything in the pick this and you just win category, as old Kassadin was. Just in solo queue you can't be certain of everyone actually knowing how to properly play against a champ, so fuck Akali I perma-ban her.

[UXLZ]

Except the difference between them is that Fizz's E has a cooldown of 8 seconds at max rank, Yasuo's wall has a cooldown of 18.

[DemonOfWrath]

You're missing the point, which is why I noted that you can swap a lot of the champions or abilities in the examples around and get the same idea. I can swap that argument to make wind wall B and Fizz E C, by noting it can negate everything not just projectiles. Getting nit-picky about trying to prove which ability is better I feel doesn't affect my overall message. You note what their abilities can do and you play around them, same as every other champion and ability and item active in the game.

I do really want to say though that wind wall can legitimately win a game by itself when placed well. It has a big cooldown for a really good reason (two in a big teamfight would be nuts).

[Arcvasti]

Wind Wall also protects more then one person. Fizz E only protects him. I think Fizz E is balanced if he needs to either use his E for damage or land his ult to be able to kill his target. Therefore I am satisfied with projected nerf.

[UXLZ]

You're missing the point, which is why I noted that you can swap a lot of the champions or abilities in the examples around and get the same idea. I can swap that argument to make wind wall B and Fizz E C, by noting it can negate everything not just projectiles. Getting nit-picky about trying to prove which ability is better I feel doesn't affect my overall message. You note what their abilities can do and you play around them, same as every other champion and ability and item active in the game.

Yasuo's wind wall does indeed need a massive cooldown. My point was more that Fizz's E has a very, very small cooldown for what it actually does.

That's why I support the nerf. If Fizz doesn't need to use his E to kill someone then it's a disengage that is way, way too strong.

[IronyOwl]

Getting nit-picky about trying to prove which ability is better I feel doesn't affect my overall message. You note what their abilities can do and you play around them, same as every other champion and ability and item active in the game.

But your point appears to basically just be "some things are overpowered, but since they nerfed Kassadin nothing's so overpowered you can't theoretically play around some of it." I don't see how that intersects with "dodging point-and-click abilities on an 8-second CD is bullshit." Other than to note that it's possible to play around some of it, but as even you mention, that's true of everything.

[DemonOfWrath]

Ok sure, that sort of is my argument. Some stuff IS a bit too powerful (Rek'sai definitely last patch, Azir probably is at the moment) but it's more of a numbers thing, rather than being completely whack (as in old Kass which was just the easiest thing to come to mind). Now like I said, that's all my own opinion, and I went about explaining that because I know others here will disagree on that or on how overpowered some things are, and I wanted to give some background to where I was construing my argument from.

It intersects with "dodging point-and-click abilities on an 8-second CD is bullshit." because it sort of points out I DON'T think it's that bullshit. Part of the game and how it's balanced is everyone has some measure of 'bullshit' but they have weaknesses and ways to counterplay that balance it out, which incidentally is also why in the last few months we saw Leblanc and Talon lose silences as part of their kits, because it wasn't possible to play around them killing you within a silence so you can't respond in any way, and why assassins are seeing their damage potential hooked more into hitting certain skills (Ahri charm, the potential changes to Fizz now with his ult). If it was bullshit then you either wouldn't be able to play around it full stop, or it would be difficult to the point of it being practically not an option. I just don't see Fizz being in that category as a whole (that does NOT mean I necessarily think he's 100% balanced btw), same with a lot of things you hear a lot of people complaining about (for instance as a top laner I have not much problem playing against Gnar, it just requires you know the strengths and weaknesses of his forms).

Edit: Actually let me amend something, competitively I think there's a decent chance Azir as-is will hit Kassadin levels of rediculous once players and teams start gettting really good at playing with him, the sheer potential of that champ is pretty nuts.

[frostshotgg]

This is incredibly frustrating to read. Stop focusing on the absolute worst case scenario where Fizz's E is strongest and realize that only a total idiot plays into that situation.

If you're going to give every single skill in the game a set-up where it's at its absolute best, there are much worse offenders in the game than popping a painful spell.

Nasus does infinite damage
Sion has infinite health
Fiddlesticks gets the most damage per point of AP
Yasuo eats everything except melee and lasers
Mundo heals faster than he can be damaged
Soraka heals everybody faster than Mundo can heal
Gangplank crits for Soraka's entire bar
Evelynn can't be warded against
Tristana farms safely from her fountain
Hecarim has the highest finite attack damage cap in the game
4 Zzrot portals with no minions kills a turret
Rammus can run from nexus to nexus faster than his taunt ends

* frostshotgg pauses for breath

[Astral]

You forgot "Veigar has infinite magic damage" in there.