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[Putnam]

I never once said that either game was superior, only that Frumple is understating the amount of impact "small" differences can make, unless you consider stating a bunch of differences and the impact they make to be me saying that Dota's superior (in which case... uh, can you point out how I worded that to make it seem that way?)

It's true that Dota is more lenient on odd builds for most heroes. Certain heroes can be played as a support or carry and have been in pro play. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It's also true that League is easier to get into due to the fact that you don't have to think quite as much about itemization unless you're really good as you do in Dota. Lots of things can be said about this kind of thing.

And yeah, about the Medusa thing, you can't really blame me for the confusion, heh.

[Flying Dice]

Sorry, it's just that pretty much every time I check new replies in this thread, you've posted another indirectly but pretty obviously negative generalization like these:

Wow, what a sad game that you can play it wrong. People will flame you in Dota for doing something stupidly, but everything can work.

the game gets boring playing the same champions with the same typical configuration....

well try playing a different game then because this one isn't very conducive to going against that behavior compared to others in the genre

I mean, I get that we all have different tastes, and I'm sorry if you didn't intend to come off like that, but that's what it feels like. I love genuine discussions on the state of the game, on what's been screwed up and what isn't, what's wrong with balance, &c., but that requires something other than "this game is bad at this, other games are better". Especially when the generalizations aren't even that accurate; pretty much every champion can be played in multiple roles and builds, and the flaming for playing 'non-meta' stuff doesn't really happen that much, especially when you don't suck with it. I've seen all sorts of bizarre things work -- in soloQ, to boot -- and it sort of rubs me the wrong way for someone who hasn't even bothered getting going in the game to make flat statements like that. I don't talk much about how DotA is because I haven't played it enough to know. So I talk about what I like/dislike about LoL, and what is (relatively) objectively being done well or poorly by their balance team. 

[IronyOwl]

It's true that Dota is more lenient on odd builds for most heroes. Certain heroes can be played as a support or carry and have been in pro play. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It's also true that League is easier to get into due to the fact that you don't have to think quite as much about itemization unless you're really good as you do in Dota. Lots of things can be said about this kind of thing.

I'm curious how much of this is due to item actives and how much is due to what else.

Of course, I'm also curious just how true this is. Pretty much any character in LoL can be built in various ways, it's just a matter of how good an idea it is. Especially with Dota's supposedly superior focus on counterbuilding, I'm wondering just how much more room it's really got for building weird stuff as a sound strategy.

[Putnam]

That first one is pretty WTF worthy, yeah, should probably not inject opinion so much

The second one is less so, though; League's champions are designed around certain playstyles and certain roles more than in some other games in the genre. Gnar was announced with his lore and his abilities and with a statement that he's champ who is best played in the top lane and synergizes with Orianna and is countered by Teemo and such. Terrorblade was announced with his lore and his abilities and some balance patches. It's a different design method.

I'd say it's very very much due to item actives. Also, I wouldn't say "superior focus", more "greater". I guess they're synonyms, but one has implications.

[frostshotgg]

I think the most skills I've ever had on one champ at one time if you count summoners and items is 11, 4 skills, 5 actives, and 2 summoners, when I was maining Yi and Fiora when FF came out. It's not that item actives aren't available, it's that they aren't totally game changing like BKB or Refresher. It's a conscious trade off for spikes of power when items are off cooldown versus constant power and specific passives. I find myself wishing I had just one or two more slots in League for all of the items I want far more frequently than in Dota.

[Flying Dice]

Actually, one thing I'm sort of curious about is to what degree DotA is similar or different in terms of what you might call shifting kits -- things like Nidalee, Jayce, and perhaps Udyr to a lesser degree, where champions can actively switch or rotate between fairly different playstyles on the fly. It's one of the reasons why I love both of the former two (and why the Nid rework made me so happy), insofar as that it promotes a much more involved playstyle (even if it seems to be typecast into a dichotomy between long-ranged poke and high-speed all-ins).

[frostshotgg]

There's Troll Warlord who is very close to Jayce, and Invoker who is what Sona has wet dreams of becoming, and Rubick can copy people's skills but only 1 at a time. That's all I can think of as far as changing kits goes.

[quinnr]

Speaking of, I picked up Jayce a couple days ago after getting bored of saving IP for Gnar. He's actually a lot of fun but a bit hard to play at first (kind of like Elise). I never know how to build him, though. As far as I can tell, there are a couple mindsets. Go tanky, rely on the anti-tank hammerpush and build tanky. That way you can jump to people and slow them, fling them back, and maybe finish off a high-HP character if you are lucky. The other mindset is to build on-hit procs (mainly Muramune) and AD and use his W and EQ combos in Marksmen mode and switch to melee to dish out assassin-like damage. I never know what to do, but either way is pretty fun. I just love the crazy poke you get from the Acceleration Gate, and the movement-speed steroids (TRANSFORM + E + HOMEGAURD = PROFIT)

Any tips for playing tank/bruisers toplane though? I feel like I'm always behind since I never get any kills if I'm going mostly tank, and then I end up dying a lot since I'm supposed to initiate and I get really sad.

[Cthulhu]

There's not a lot of that, no.

I'm kind of happy about it, it seems like most of the transform or shifting kit champs are overloaded as fuck.  Lee has seven abilities and basically no resource costs if he uses his passive, Elise has  seven abilities, Nid has seven abilities and is completely obnoxious top lane, Gnar's gonna have like 50 aoe disables.

Invoker has a bunch of spells but it's different in the actual using them department, a lot of difficulty in exchange for that power.  I played Elise top on a random free week whim and stomped.

[frostshotgg]

In top lane, your job isn't to snowball like mad and then gank everywhere and snowball them, although that's how it plays out. Your first priority is to never fall behind enough such that you're irrelevant. Even if their jungler camps you and you go 0/3 in lane, you should still be farming and be able to do something.

[Flying Dice]

I just had the once-in-a-lifetime experience of being penta'd by an Urgot. I wish you could give double honors to someone now...

[SalmonGod]

I got a penta with Xin Zhao the other day.  In ARAM, of course...

[Cthulhu]

I've gotten... three pentas?

My first was with Ryze, my first Ryze game ever and I penta. 

Second was Darius.  We lost that game because lol Darius

Third was Master Yi.

[Sharp]

Well yeah, Pentas are more likely to occur on ADCs and champs with refresh on kill/asssists.

Katarina, Yi, Akali, Darius, all very good at getting Penta Kills with getting all dem resets.

I would say the other champ which doesn't have resets and is not an adc and can still get lots of pentas is Yasuo and that's because of his double crit chance and short cd E

[The Scout]

People with high damage AoE can also wipe a team, ala Cassiopeia and somewhat Brand.