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Author Topic: League of Legends - Patch 7.22 - Runes Reforged  (Read 1286576 times)

Errol

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Re: League of Legends - S3 - Patch 3.05
« Reply #11430 on: April 07, 2013, 04:24:41 pm »

Sunfire Shaco with Guardian Angel was harsh. A friend of mine soloed four people doing Baron with that.

Singed used to have AD and AS from his Insanity Pot, that was beyond awesome. Why, Riot, why?!
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Jopax

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Re: League of Legends - S3 - Patch 3.05
« Reply #11431 on: April 07, 2013, 04:46:51 pm »

Also pushing Baron around with displacement abilities, or the Heimerdinger minion blockade, god I miss crazy shit like that, now we have this ordinary game where the wierdest or most awesome thing could be teleport glitches working with grabs or pulls.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: League of Legends - S3 - Patch 3.05
« Reply #11432 on: April 07, 2013, 07:06:07 pm »

Not only that - re-checking the patchnotes shows me 1:1 AP ratio on Astral Blessing while on a 9 second cooldown. 120/90/60 CD on Wish once upon a time. Infuse as a full ally/self targetable mana restore with no catches. And Innervating Locket existed...

Live balance have definitely gotten better at their job.

The players also got better at realizing when overpowered shit was overpowered. Back then, Soraka was dismissed as the third weakest champ in the game after Alistar and Eve.

I think we all know what happened after that. Oh, season 1. We still have sleeper OP stuff, but nothing of AP Alistar and Soraka caliber.
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frostshotgg

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Re: League of Legends - S3 - Patch 3.05
« Reply #11433 on: April 07, 2013, 07:25:04 pm »

We don't have as much blatantly op stuff in either. Release Xin couldn't possibly happen today. He wouldn't last very long in riot's realms, but if he did somehow get the greenlight, PBE would nerf the fuck out of him.
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Sharp

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Re: League of Legends - S3 - Patch 3.05
« Reply #11434 on: April 08, 2013, 07:11:31 am »

I dunno, Zac is pretty op, in terms of ganks:kills I think he is pretty amazing, the only problem I get now is the same that all junglers get of all lanes needing jungle help at the same time, Zac is still pretty good that I can go from one lane to another pretty quick but can't really go top-bot that quickly.

It's sad that in my last 5 ranked games there are 4 Zac defeats all with scores like 12/4/12.

On a fairly even skilled team in lanes Zac is a huge boost, he can do great ganks, lots of damage and tanky as fuck, all Zac really needs is health and mag pen, and it's hilarious in late game as well, the blobs you leave when you get killed are so tanky that you will regen with half health unless all your team are dead. I guess you can say similar for tanky Hecarim though, he is also a usual successful ganker .
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Graven

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Re: League of Legends - S3 - Patch 3.05
« Reply #11435 on: April 08, 2013, 11:57:54 am »

I honestly can't wait for the first game where Gambit's opponents don't ban Zac and Diamondprox picks him up. Pretty sure it's gonna go the way of Edward and his Thresh.

I myself can't speak about Zac since he's somewhat mediocre in Dom, and therefore a bit rare, but from what I've seen in streams and such, he's a very nice addition to a team with nearly guaranteed CC and pretty good AoE for teamfights.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: League of Legends - S3 - Patch 3.05
« Reply #11436 on: April 10, 2013, 10:43:16 pm »

Dominion/TT people: huge motherfucking news. I'm surprised people aren't making a bigger deal about this.

They tried identical Summoner's Rift stats on Twisted Treeline. Balance sucked, didn't work. They tried modified item shops on each of those maps and global stat auras. Much better, but not up to their competitive standards yet.

So what's coming next? Map-specific champion balance changes. If this finally works, you'll see ranked Dominion.
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frostshotgg

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Re: League of Legends - S3 - Patch 3.05
« Reply #11437 on: April 10, 2013, 10:46:52 pm »

We still don't know too much about it. That one post is all we have.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: League of Legends - S3 - Patch 3.05
« Reply #11438 on: April 10, 2013, 10:54:35 pm »

Well, yeah. I just haven't seen anyone mention it in any of the League places I frequent. Seems to at least be worthy of a "Hey everyone look at this".
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frostshotgg

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Re: League of Legends - S3 - Patch 3.05
« Reply #11439 on: April 11, 2013, 05:12:15 pm »

Skin prices are being finagled. Basically, most of the older skins are getting price reductions, some newer ones are getting price increase.
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IronyOwl

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Re: League of Legends - S3 - Patch 3.05
« Reply #11440 on: April 11, 2013, 06:15:38 pm »

Dominion/TT people: huge motherfucking news. I'm surprised people aren't making a bigger deal about this.

They tried identical Summoner's Rift stats on Twisted Treeline. Balance sucked, didn't work. They tried modified item shops on each of those maps and global stat auras. Much better, but not up to their competitive standards yet.

So what's coming next? Map-specific champion balance changes. If this finally works, you'll see ranked Dominion.
This was always going to be the only real way to do it. The situations were just way too different for items and auras to let champions "translate" properly. Though they did make a noble attempt in releasing an explicitly anti-Teemo item on TT.

Now the problem, of course, is that either they've doubled/tripled/quadrupled their workload, or they've doubled their workload for non-SR maps to get subpar balancing efforts.
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Graven

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Re: League of Legends - S3 - Patch 3.05
« Reply #11441 on: April 11, 2013, 06:32:08 pm »

Let's just say I'm not especially fond of the concept by itself. It is like a reasonable start, but I feel champion balance is just a syndrome of underlying problems with the basic concept of Dominion, and the only solution is a rework.

Just as an example, bot lane is an odd and unreasonable monstrosity whose interaction with top and the entire concept of Dominion - a quick, teamfighty map - is counter-logical, and as a result a great majority of the population want to have nothing to do with it - to the point I need to nag about ganks, pushing and builds almost every single game, and I'm fairly sure I'm still at the above 1800 Elo range, based on the people I'm playing in soloqueue.

There are similar problems with the basic layout, the still remaining rubberbanding mechanics and wave-based respawn.

Of course I might be talking out of my ass. Also it's much better than nothing, by far, but it's not better than a rework.
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What a strange and beautiful world I beheld, but dangerous too, I was certain. And I was friendless and homeless. And so I prayed.
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frostshotgg

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Re: League of Legends - S3 - Patch 3.05
« Reply #11442 on: April 11, 2013, 07:12:29 pm »

So Graven, you're probably the most prepared to explain this. How could you take bottom out of Dominion without making it Proving Grounds w/ a jungle?
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Graven

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Re: League of Legends - S3 - Patch 3.05
« Reply #11443 on: April 12, 2013, 11:20:03 am »

I started typing a reply yesterday, but it was already 3:30 am and my thoughts weren't exactly coherent, let alone my ability to explain them. Also I'll be damned if I know the answer since as most people I avoid Bot like the devil, so I'm just going to list a few of what I consider to be major problems. Bear in mind this is soloqueue, with an experienced team who is communicating through skype or what have you the situation changes a bit, unfortunately from what I've seen not nearly enough.

So first have a glimpse at this statistically irrelevant sample of six games I just played [team presence is the first time a member of that team appears bot] :

Code: [Select]
Someone else  Champion   Champion   Team Presence  Team Presence    Number of Ganks Number of Ganks Game Won/Lost  Notes 
going bot     Blue       Purple      Blue           Purple          Blue            Purple

No           Diana[me]   Jax         04:06          05:45           1 gank          7 ganks         lost     I won lane until ganks
           Switch - Zyra             recap           gank

Yes          Zed [us]    Talon       10:55          02:54           1 gank          1 gank          won      Lane was even bot

I could, but  Shaco     Zyra[me]     05:00          07:05           4 ganks         2 ganks         lost     Top failed hard
rather not   Switch-Ryze Switch-Blitz gank           cap
 
I could      Diana      Irelia[me]    11:20         12:45           3 ganks         2 ganks         won      Destroyed bot, farmed at their health relic
                                      gank           gank

I could     Syndra[us]   Jax         05:36          06:00                                           lost

I could      Kayle[me]   Teemo       05:53          05:44                                           lost      Afk on my team, constant 2v1 bot, I won lane before the 1v2

This is completely neglectable as a sample, but from my 1200+ games on Dominion, the general trend is the same : unless top or bot fails hard, bot remains isolated.

Problems!

1. It's isolated : as I already said, in solo play, more than anything else in league of legends, bottom lane in Dominion is its own universe, which will only see action in the first five or more minutes if top gets completely smashed for either side. The time between ganks is even greater, considering the average game lasts 20 minutes. There are champions whose role revolves entirely around ganks [Rengar, Khazix, Evelyn] and if you have good players you can completely mess up the other team, forcing constant switching and drawing defenders from other points, but at and below average level soloqueue it's a crapshoot. I've gotten entire games without a single gank bot.

2. It's incredibly important : Bot lane is the best point of pressure on the entire map. Top can be fortified with the proper teamcomp/simply Heimerdinger, and while bot and mid are the same distance from the Nexus, you already have a person bot. Mid is way too close to the enemy nexus to allow anything more than a brief backcap/point swap. This does mean your entire team and every person in it need to be flexible in their positioning and possess great map awareness. Taking off defenders from top only counts if you can either hold the point you just stole, or quickly exchange it for another one. Bot is generally easier to hold because you already have a player there who is, ideally, ahead of his opponent.

3. It's about pushing : unlike lanes in SR where the main goal is to farm minions and maybe kill the other guy if he dun goofed - unless you have a strategy revolving around pushing towers quickly and laneswapping [and let's face it, unless you're a tournament player, you don't], bot lane is about controlling the health pickup, sustaining in lane and shoving the bastard way up the other dude's point. Since Dom is a capture-and-hold affair, capturing or at least dropping the point neutral is a great boon. However, like SR, when you're pushed all the way to the enemy point, you're really easy to gank. These two things lead to people overcommitting, dying, forcing a defender from top to go bot and recap and a vicious cycle.

4. It's boring : while top is either a tense skillshot-standoff or a completely bonkers 4v4 divefest, bot often devolves into a farming session, especially with a lot of the semi-top tier picks - Nasus, Nunu, Malzahar/Heimerdinger, Singed, two AD carries, two AP carries. Even more common is the situation I got to in my Irelia game listed above : I can kill the enemy bot, but not really dive them at tower, and our clear is the same. This leads to a situation where I clear the wave at its spawn point, they clear my wave on their point, and we wait for the next one. This means not a lot of people are actually willing to go bot and you end up with a lot of "ehhh... I guess I don't really care where I go". It's somewhat rare to get a player willing to play bot and it's even rarer to get a player who actually knows what to do bot.

The way I see it bot lane needs a greater degree of integration. Dominion is a lot more team-oriented than SR in that you need good teamwork to win - you can't do well in your lane and carry a Dominion game, and there isn't a position like jungle which can affect the entire game. There are far more opportunities for entering a teamfight from the sides and behind, and there doesn't actually exist a situation in which you're safe. You can always be dived and gibbed, unless you have 2 disruptors - Alistar, Amumu and the like. This is why ad carries on Dominion are not very good - a full bruiser team is at an advantage if built correctly. And bot lane is about staying in lane, pushing the lane, going back and shopping. It's not even about fighting the other dude, it's about staying safe and pushing unless you're jax/fiora.

Toying around with the length of the lane, the layout of the jungle above it, the distance between mid and bot, the pickups, the size of creep spawns and the like would possibly have a beneficial effect  on it and make playing there more involving, but as long as the map itself focuses on constant teamfighting, and bot focuses on idle pushing and never leaving your lane, the two will be at odds.
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What a strange and beautiful world I beheld, but dangerous too, I was certain. And I was friendless and homeless. And so I prayed.
"Hear me, exalted spirits. Hear me be you gods or devils, ye who hold dominion here. I am a wizard without a home. I am a wanderer seeking refuge."

Yodamaster

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Re: League of Legends - S3 - Patch 3.05
« Reply #11444 on: April 13, 2013, 06:47:11 pm »

Dominion/TT people: huge motherfucking news. I'm surprised people aren't making a bigger deal about this.

They tried identical Summoner's Rift stats on Twisted Treeline. Balance sucked, didn't work. They tried modified item shops on each of those maps and global stat auras. Much better, but not up to their competitive standards yet.

So what's coming next? Map-specific champion balance changes. If this finally works, you'll see ranked Dominion.

The only weird thing about that is that it'll be awfully awkward going from one map to another and knowing how strong each champion is.
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