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[Frumple]

... I can kinda' see how some people would find it strange or hard to swallow to be... not doing anything, actually. Who really wants to play a game where the most optimal strategy is to basically just sit on your arse half the time while the other people actually get to enjoy themselves? I'm quite certain quite a few people would be thoroughly uninterested in doing that, y'know?

I'unno, I know where you're coming from, but something about that little spiel just kinda' sits poorly, possible re: DotA knockoff game design. Why design a game where it's a good idea for one or more of the people playing it to, well, not play it for half the match or whatever? Just another reason to decouple character progression from critter kills if i ever do get around to drumming out an AoS style roguelike, I guess.

[Jopax]

But there was stuff for her to do. She could be chucking spears into the other two guys, laying traps, she could be AA-ing the other two guys, anything but touching the freaking minions, would that have been so hard to do?

And it's not like she missed the gold, the two or three ganks Maokai made all ended up with her and him having atleast a kill every time while I would have to do with assists because I was either dead or not doing enough damage at the time. The first kill of that match for me was at some 15-20 minutes when we had a fight on mid and my E killed a running Jax.

[frostshotgg]

Protip: Support is the hardest role in the game. They get the shit end of the stick and all they do is get raged at for it. Get off your high houses and except that maybe, just maybe your support was forced into the role, and that you don't have some god given right to all of the fun in the game. I've come to expect better of bay12 than egotistical circlejerking about supports who aren't perfect.

[DemonOfWrath]

Yes, however by playing support really badly (ie forcing your adc to compete with you to kill minions) you severely screw over your teams adc which really stuffs the whole team. The important things are basically just leave the minions alone, avoid you/your adc dying and throw up wards. You can still focus on heaps of other stuff besides that. You could pick an aggressive champ and focus on hitting the opposing adc/support as much as possible (well, at my level you can and it works fine). Or perhaps pick someone who can go tanky (Cho'Gath anyone?)? Not every support champ plays like a Soraka who isn't interested in being really annoying with silences. Is it really necessary to have awesome cs and k/d/a to have fun playing the game?

It could've been worse anyways, trying to compete with a Yi for minions just makes you want to cry.

[DemonOfWrath]

Edit: double post, ignore sorry.

[Jopax]

I know that, I was forced to play Soraka last night, and I did my best to keep the others alive and running while trying to mess up the other team with silences as much as  I could. If you're forced into a role you don't screw your team in petty rage, you give your damned best to help them win. Many people are like this actually and we never talk about that stuff because it's expect to try and give your best for the win.

The ones that get talked about are the ones that are such assholes that they warrant getting talked about.

[IronyOwl]

Protip: Support is the hardest role in the game. They get the shit end of the stick and all they do is get raged at for it. Get off your high houses and except that maybe, just maybe your support was forced into the role, and that you don't have some god given right to all of the fun in the game. I've come to expect better of bay12 than egotistical circlejerking about supports who aren't perfect.

Getting forced into a role isn't an excuse for playing it in obviously shitty, easy to fix, blatantly detrimental ways. If I get forced into jungler, I'm probably going to suck at it. That doesn't mean I'm not going to try not to suck at it, or go bot just to steal bot's cs and push the lane because I like gold, or sit in a bush for ten minutes waiting for the perfect gank to come by. I'm probably not going to gank the proper targets or approach at the proper times, but that's because that's subtle, debatable, nuanced stuff, not an obvious, simple mechanical behavior that you simply should not do for fairly obvious, well-established reasons that can be explained to you if you're still not clear on them.

In this case, the carry needs the gold more than you do, and even if they didn't, autoattacking is an inefficient method of getting it for yourself. There's literally no defense for it beyond frantic pushing.

Also, I would have given that title and both of those assessments to jungler, since they've got the most nonstandard decisionmaking, the most high-stakes aggressive actions, and are the obvious fall guys for when somebody loses their lane and needs to pin it on someone else.

[frostshotgg]

No, support is hardest because they get shit like this. They have to worry about everything the AD worries about, most of the stuff a jungler has to worry about, and then they get some of their own shit. And they're never rewarded, ever. There's no "GJ Sona", only "..." or "pls report this sona so bad". Yes, maybe the supports weren't fucking perfect. Part of your job as a yoloqueue AD is to deal with it. Right now you're spewing entitled bullshit and generally being the scum of the community.

For the record, I tried maining support once. Never again. For every one AD that was even so much as silent, I got easily a dozen that bitched every time there was a single pixel of map unwarded, every time I even so much as stepped near the minions, and every time I couldn't give them godmode 24/7 while they sat around with their thumbs up their asses. I think out of 400 games or so, I might've had 5 or 6 ADs who were decent guys I'd add to my friends list and queue up with every now and then.

[Absolute Niro]

The fact that supports are treated like trash doesn't mean they get to freeload, they still have to contribute to the team. I don't mind if an inexperienced support doesn't ward river, but not taking CS should be common sense. There's no way a support can accidentally compete with the AD for farm, it's disruptive behavior that's entirely intentional.

If a support doesn't want to cooperate just because they're not being treated as well as the rest of the team, then that support shouldn't play solo queue.

[Kalemyr Skyfire]

Not that many people are grateful to support; you rarely see anyone instalock a support. Support is fun to play though.

Imo junglers have it worse. Didn't gank mid? Noob please report. Top turret got destroyed while you're ganking bot? Report. Seriously, everything you have nothing to do with is always your fault from their pov.

On the bright side, support and jungle occasionally get that one praise. Look at tank for example, you ever see anyone praise a tank? They take the brunt of damage so the ADC can unleash their payload, and all of the praise usually go to the ADC.

[Orangebottle]

If your support is just sitting there in the brush, they are doing something wrong. They should constantly be harrassing the other two bot laners, or helping you last hit. I do that even as champs like Sona.

I've been maining supports today a bit. Played a couple games of Sona, with the arcade skin. Went 3/0/20something on the first game. Let me put it this way: if your bot can't kill an untanky Sona, you don't have an ADC. They were running Garen and Thresh bot for some reason. Ashe and I mopped the floor with them.

[IronyOwl]

No, support is hardest because they get shit like this. They have to worry about everything the AD worries about, most of the stuff a jungler has to worry about, and then they get some of their own shit. And they're never rewarded, ever. There's no "GJ Sona", only "..." or "pls report this sona so bad". Yes, maybe the supports weren't fucking perfect. Part of your job as a yoloqueue AD is to deal with it.

I'd disagree. The AD needs to worry about last hitting while not getting harassed and harassing back if possible. The support doesn't usually need to concern themselves with last hitting and needs to worry a bit more about harassing, but they tend to be less of a harass target and care less when they are harassed. They are responsible for warding, true, but I wouldn't really consider that difficult in the same sense.

You could probably argue that tanky supports have the added problem of knowing when to go in or not, but that's an initiator issue, not a support issue.

As for junglers, I really don't see it. Obviously bad carries tend to blame their supports when things go wrong, and vice versa, but everyone, the aforementioned included, tends to blame the jungler when things go bad. Supports are typically only concerned with their own lane, whereas junglers have to worry about everyone's lane, their jungle, and often the enemy's jungle. Harassing as an occupation and getting ganked by the opposing jungler are the only things I can think of that supports have to worry about that junglers typically don't.

Finally, I've never particularly seen supports getting less credit than everyone else. I rarely see "GJ whoever" or similar at all, but when I do, it's usually bent towards disablers and chasers, ie people who pull kills out of not-kills. I don't see "Man this support is helping so much" every game, but I don't see that for any role every game, and if there's a bias against supports for it otherwise, it's not something I've really noticed.

Right now you're spewing entitled bullshit and generally being the scum of the community.

No, you're spewing oversensitive reactionary bullshit and generally being disconnected from what everyone else is talking about. Evidently you either you think AAing minions is perfectly fine but can't be bothered to explain just why, or you think AAing minions is equivalent to not warding perfectly or similar but can't be bothered to explain why either. The result is you screaming about self-entitled assholes while we explain about horrible supports.

For the record, I tried maining support once. Never again. For every one AD that was even so much as silent, I got easily a dozen that bitched every time there was a single pixel of map unwarded, every time I even so much as stepped near the minions, and every time I couldn't give them godmode 24/7 while they sat around with their thumbs up their asses. I think out of 400 games or so, I might've had 5 or 6 ADs who were decent guys I'd add to my friends list and queue up with every now and then.

For the record, I support with decent frequency. I occasionally get (sometimes well-deserved) shit about warding, and very rarely get the standard I'm Losing Must Be Support's Fault jive, but usually I just get relative silence and a teamwork honor at the end. Most of my complaints have been with my AD's last hitting ability or occasionally their aggressiveness, not their stated opinion of my supporting ability.

I've been maining supports today a bit. Played a couple games of Sona, with the arcade skin. Went 3/0/20something on the first game. Let me put it this way: if your bot can't kill an untanky Sona, you don't have an ADC. They were running Garen and Thresh bot for some reason. Ashe and I mopped the floor with them.

Maybe this is just me, but I always get a really warm fuzzy feeling when I end up going 1/8/24 as a Leona or something.

[webadict]

If your support is just sitting there in the brush, they are doing something wrong. They should constantly be harrassing the other two bot laners, or helping you last hit. I do that even as champs like Sona.

I've been maining supports today a bit. Played a couple games of Sona, with the arcade skin. Went 3/0/20something on the first game. Let me put it this way: if your bot can't kill an untanky Sona, you don't have an ADC. They were running Garen and Thresh bot for some reason. Ashe and I mopped the floor with them.

Yeeeah, no. Not always. Sona is one of those champs that harasses (Like, constant harass, I have no idea what you mean by "even as Sona"), but not every support harasses. Sometimes, they can't harass, or it's too dangerous to harass. Sometimes, harassing does nothing but make you lose health.

Supports tend to have attributes from a set pool: Harass/poke, sustain/heal, control/cc. You should aim for at least 2 of 3 if you want to support as a champ, but if you add more to your team in another area, then it'll be fine. So, a champion with low harass might not be able to harass (Leona does not harass well), but they do relieve pressure by being there.

Come on, man. Sona's poke champ.

[frostshotgg]

Just going to put responses in bold/color text, because quotes get really unwieldy right around now. Also spoilering because I'm sure there are people who read this thread for news/non-ranty arguments.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'd disagree. The AD needs to worry about last hitting while not getting harassed and harassing back if possible. The support doesn't usually need to concern themselves with last hitting and needs to worry a bit more about harassing, but they tend to be less of a harass target and care less when they are harassed. They are responsible for warding, true, but I wouldn't really consider that difficult in the same sense.
No, because a support has to also keep an eye on the AD's stuff too. He has to make sure that the AD isn't being harassed, and is able to farm adequately, and if not, rectify that. That is the support's entire role in laning phase, babysitting the AD.

You could probably argue that tanky supports have the added problem of knowing when to go in or not, but that's an initiator issue, not a support issue.
There's really nothing to say to this. It's a true statement, but not especially relevant to the point I'm trying to make.

As for junglers, I really don't see it. Obviously bad carries tend to blame their supports when things go wrong, and vice versa, but everyone, the aforementioned included, tends to blame the jungler when things go bad. Supports are typically only concerned with their own lane, whereas junglers have to worry about everyone's lane, their jungle, and often the enemy's jungle. Harassing as an occupation and getting ganked by the opposing jungler are the only things I can think of that supports have to worry about that junglers typically don't.
One of the most critical things a jungler has to know is where everybody is on the map, or at least have a pretty good guess. A skilled jungler is almost psychic when it comes to predicting where in the jungle an enemy is. Supports have to know this too, and they have to make sure that everybody can with wards. Buff/Drake/Baron timers also are expected of the support as well as the jungle. The only thing junglers have to worry about that supports don't is exactly how to go about a gank.

Finally, I've never particularly seen supports getting less credit than everyone else. I rarely see "GJ whoever" or similar at all, but when I do, it's usually bent towards disablers and chasers, ie people who pull kills out of not-kills. I don't see "Man this support is helping so much" every game, but I don't see that for any role every game, and if there's a bias against supports for it otherwise, it's not something I've really noticed.
I could link you to dozens of videos of supports making ungodly good plays, and then, say, the carry getting all the credit. Everybody else on a team makes red bars go down. The support often times can only hold the red bars go still or make green bars go up. This just isn't noticed as well. Leonas can make great max range Es, but it's the Cait who autos right after her that gets noticed.

No, you're spewing oversensitive reactionary bullshit and generally being disconnected from what everyone else is talking about. Evidently you either you think AAing minions is perfectly fine but can't be bothered to explain just why, or you think AAing minions is equivalent to not warding perfectly or similar but can't be bothered to explain why either. The result is you screaming about self-entitled assholes while we explain about horrible supports.
I think there are situations where it is a good idea to AA minions, but they are few and far between. I'm getting pissed off because you're circlejerking over "Oh yeah haha this support AA'd minions I hope she gets banned". If I'm playing, say, Karma, you can be damn well sure I'm going to take as much cs as I need, so I can keep your lazy ass alive. I can totally see why a Lux or Nid support would want the gold as well. Just because you want to conform to a stagnant meta that's rapidly becoming outdated, doesn't mean another player should suffer because of it.

For the record, I support with decent frequency. I occasionally get (sometimes well-deserved) shit about warding, and very rarely get the standard I'm Losing Must Be Support's Fault jive, but usually I just get relative silence and a teamwork honor at the end. Most of my complaints have been with my AD's last hitting ability or occasionally their aggressiveness, not their stated opinion of my supporting ability.
Then I suppose you've had much more luck in the business than I.

[werty892]

My policy is "If it wins games, I don't care if it breaks meta or breaks some hidden rule."