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[thvaz]

I would like to point out that the next release won't change radically the game (as it was the case when the Z-level got implemented or when DF2010 came out with its body system and materials changes).  The single really complex feature will be the new cities. Everything else is bells and whistles. The new version won't break the game as those other did.

[Cruxador]

I wouldn't consider it to be insane. It's very unusual, from the perspective of our society, but there's evidence to suggest it's relatively normal with regards to the human psyche; Toady is certainly far from the only person to dedicate his life to a project.

[zwei]

@ Rant with R

First, game is not that hard. It is complicated, but solid 30 minute tutorial can easily get pretty much everyone up to speed because there are many things you can easily ignore and never, ever touch, many things that are semi-optional until you reach "expert" gameplay level and only few core things you absolutelly have to take care of.

Seccond, spreadsheeting is sign that You take it too seriously. I feel it is not that similar to raiders in wow who insist that you have to play perfectly and to do so, you have to maintain your equipment/talent/biorhytmn spreadsheed with calculations which tells you optimal times to poop in your sock. You can just assign jobs semi-randomly and it will work out just fine.

Your issues stem from wating to have perfect gameplay in unifinished game - which is impossible.

I do agree with bugs, interface and incompleteness, but everyone else does as well and only discussion is about priority of that versus adding new features.

[Knight Otu]

What's with the buildings that are filled with just tables? Are those shops or something?

They're just empty shops that'll presumably be filled in the release.

Warehouses.

No, the warehouses are the large dark-gray buildings on the overview maps. There were no warehouses in the latest tile-level image.

[huhu]

I would like to point out that the next release won't change radically the game (as it was the case when the Z-level got implemented or when DF2010 came out with its body system and materials changes).  The single really complex feature will be the new cities. Everything else is bells and whistles. The new version won't break the game as those other did.

The economy system has already showed some emergent hilarities as seen in the recent devlog entries. I suspect we haven't seen even the tip of the iceberg on that front, yet.

[hermes]

The economy system has already showed some emergent hilarities as seen in the recent devlog entries. I suspect we haven't seen even the tip of the iceberg on that front, yet.

Yes, with this release I'd also assume that the majority of the world-gen economy must be "up and running" so to speak.  I'm curious as to what Toady's approach to the world economy design has been, with an eye on later releases...  Will the economy be "grounded" in the world-gen scale, where gross supply/demand is balanced and then individual producers take their cues from those global values, or will you try to balance it from the bottom up, where producers make as much as they want/can per their situation and personality, and let them react to market forces as they emerge?

[murlocdummy]

Feel better?

If you want a finished game, come back in 2030- that's the optimistic estimate for when this game will be done. As you yourself noted, this isn't your baby- it's Toady's. He can do with it what he wants, he isn't trying to get rich. DF isn't our dreams, hopes or ideas- it is HIS. He can make this game the way he wants it to be made, and he's fortunate enough to be able to make a living at it. If you don't feel it deserves to be supported, then don't donate. Toady's never charged you a dime.

I feel like you're deflecting here. Yeah, Toady can do essentially whatever he wants with the game; that's totally his prerogative, and I think everyone here knows that. That doesn't mean people have to agree with how things are going, or that nobody can give useful advice.

I agree- I'm deflecting. I also agree that people don't have to agree, or that they can't give useful advice (that's why we have a Suggestions Forum, after all.)  I just don't think derailing this thread is the appropriate way to have this discussion, especially in the manner he's chosen to introduce the topic. If he feels like snipping that wall 'o text and moving it to a new thread, then I'll happily give my thoughts on the matter there.

This would also why I attempted to rerail the conversation- who here's played adventure mode with hunger enabled? Lord knows I'll be spending plenty of time in Adventure mode, come the update, so I'd like to have an idea of how many elk I need to butcher before having some extended sewer exploration

I'm starting to feel worse, actually.  I'm not even sure that we've got the whole 10% here on the forums.  Maybe 8% at most.  I'm sure that more than 80% of DF users on this forum are part of the Cult of Toady and will flat-out dismiss anything and everything I have to say, but to the remainder, I don't feel that the new warehouse and shop systems are going to work, and I'd probably be right.  Looking at Toady's track record, you could probably even make educated guesses about what won't work.  By 2030, I expect the game to get worse, not better, but its inherent popularity due to the game that it -could be- will undoubtedly keep the donations flowing.

I think we should start up a betting pool (Using non-real money, of course) to bet what isn't going to work in the next update.

I'm going to put 5☼ on lumps of stones being edible in Adventure.

[huhu]

I'm sure that more than 80% of DF users on this forum are part of the Cult of Toady and will flat-out dismiss anything and everything I have to say

Over the years, I've acknowledged every point you made so far about the failings of DF. There are some things that annoy me in the game that I didn't see you mention yet. I just feel that the positives outweigh the negatives, which is just a personal opinion. I'd say those "80% of the DF users on this forum" you mentioned belong to that category instead.

[murlocdummy]

I'm sure that more than 80% of DF users on this forum are part of the Cult of Toady and will flat-out dismiss anything and everything I have to say

Over the years, I've acknowledged every point you made so far about the failings of DF. There are some things that annoy me in the game that I didn't see you mention yet. I just feel that the positives outweigh the negatives, which is just a personal opinion. I'd say those "80% of the DF users on this forum" you mentioned belong to that category instead.

I may feel the same way, but that feeling only applies to the beginning portions of Embark and up to 50 dwarves.  After that point, the Excel spreadsheets start to save time and enable you to progress through the game faster, and it makes me die a little on the inside that Toady would allow such a thing to happen.

Also, 15☼ on at least 3 shops not calculating item values correctly and giving you wrong prices for things
20☼ on at least 2 shops either taking your money without giving you the items you selected to buy, or giving you money without taking the items you selected to sell

[thvaz]

I would like to point out that the next release won't change radically the game (as it was the case when the Z-level got implemented or when DF2010 came out with its body system and materials changes).  The single really complex feature will be the new cities. Everything else is bells and whistles. The new version won't break the game as those other did.

The economy system has already showed some emergent hilarities as seen in the recent devlog entries. I suspect we haven't seen even the tip of the iceberg on that front, yet.

The economy system has been worked over a few releases already. One of the "bugs" we already have about the economy system is the one that causes entire civilizations to die of famine. So I still stand that nothing radical was changed for the new release, so it won't be broken as bad as 31.01 was.

[Shinotsa]

I may feel the same way, but that feeling only applies to the beginning portions of Embark and up to 50 dwarves.  After that point, the Excel spreadsheets start to save time and enable you to progress through the game faster, and it makes me die a little on the inside that Toady would allow such a thing to happen.

Also, 15☼ on at least 3 shops not calculating item values correctly and giving you wrong prices for things
20☼ on at least 2 shops either taking your money without giving you the items you selected to buy, or giving you money without taking the items you selected to sell

Please be pessimistic in another thread or at least ask a question. The players who are bothered by inaccessibility either tough it out or download something such as dwarf therapist which is basically what you've been complaining the game lacks when it comes to job assignments. Right now you're arguing that the basic ball and stick sketch that artists do before drawing people should be scrapped in favor of an immediately finished product. It simply doesn't work that way. You lay down a framework and flesh it out lightly. If a line is broken, smudged, or too light you don't go back and change it, you simply continue fleshing it out until the framework supports a greater picture that you then scrutinize and perfect. Sure if you drew the legs in an awkward position you'd change that, but anything more than fixing what is necessary for the next steps and adding new detail and features to the pre-existing framework would be a waste of time since, as has been stated many times, it would be replaced later on. And let's not start with the ad hominem, just because we're mostly fans of Toady doesn't mean we're cultists supporting the game without reason.
/derail

Anyhow, I saw someone's question about old adventure mode thirst/hunger get blocked out before. Does anyone know how food and drink were handled in the older versions? I know any liquid was drinkable which made dehydration almost impossible, but how often did eating/drinking have to occur? Was it a 3 squares kind of thing, a once a day kind of thing, or was it less often?

[Dsarker]

Could just download one of those earlier versions and find out. It wasn't so much as to become annoying, at least.

'Damnit, nearly run out of food...I feel uneasy. Hmmm, well, time to wait for my next food supply'

[thvaz]

What was annoying was the fact that you couldn't refill your waterskins.

And you could fast travel without worrying about food or water.

[G-Flex]

Right now you're arguing that the basic ball and stick sketch that artists do before drawing people should be scrapped in favor of an immediately finished product. It simply doesn't work that way. You lay down a framework and flesh it out lightly.

A lot of people have been making counterarguments like this, to the effect of "of course it has flaws; it's not nearly complete yet". In some ways, this holds water, but it's not a relevant argument if what people are criticizing is the development process itself, such as the order in which things are done, or their priority, or other aspects of the process. I just felt this might be worth mentioning.

[Shinotsa]

Look up how to draw a person, doesn't matter what style. The rest of the statement that wasn't quoted went on to detail why things are done in their order. Efficiency is one of the main reasons, though I can't imagine how boring and frusturating bug fixing must be for a lone programmer, especially when he knows he's just going to have to scrap things in a year or two.

Anyway, I'm pretty excited for the eating/drinking thing to be done. The "uneasiness" message makes me feel a little better now that I remember that my adventurer would routinely be set upon by easy to dispatch animals made of millions upon millions of sweet, succulent parts. And I suppose drinking blood really might be viable since, if I remember in Life of Pi, he survived at sea by drinking sea turtle blood. Granted I'm not really sure if that was unique of sea turtles or something, it's a little macabre for me seeing as how I have a whole host of similar little buggers at home. I'm just worried that I'll be stuck in a group of dead goblins, starving, wishing my ethics were a little different.