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[Anatoli]

It isn't something I tried to stop, because of a historical map I saw with some farmland inside a wall much like this, but I do think it is kind of strange.  I'm not sure they'd want to rebuild it that way the first time the outer buildings get burned, so I'm also not sure if it'll last up to the army stuff, but I'll have to look at more example images from history and whether the one I saw was a total anomaly.  It should probably prefer to fill out the interior -- right now it just spills out buildings from the keep area.

I'm not sure if it's a reliable historical reference, but I was reading "The Hunchback of Notre-Dame" and it had a section that told a little history about the architecture of Paris.

Basically, several times in the history of Paris, attempts were made to build walls to encompas the entire city. Most were relativelly unsuccessful, and those that were, were only successful for 50-100 years. The tactics to do this, were restricting the building outside city walls, and building another giant section of the wall extending way beyong the city. Eventually, the shops and houses got too crowded, and spilled beyong the walls, which triggered another round of wall building in a couple decades. But for a short period of time, there was empty space that was not filled with anything.

Basically, the moral of the story, is that a strong ruler wants to protect his city and commands a wall to be build around all the buildings in the city. Of course, he can fail depending on his personna and the layout of the city, but the desire to have some empty space is not an anomality. So as long the empty space you have is rare, or quickly fill up, the stuff you have there Toady, is totally legit. Of course, Threetoe probably knows about this more than I do, but I think it's totally legit.

[Kogut]

It isn't something I tried to stop, because of a historical map I saw with some farmland inside a wall much like this, but I do think it is kind of strange.  I'm not sure they'd want to rebuild it that way the first time the outer buildings get burned, so I'm also not sure if it'll last up to the army stuff, but I'll have to look at more example images from history and whether the one I saw was a total anomaly.  It should probably prefer to fill out the interior -- right now it just spills out buildings from the keep area.

I'm not sure if it's a reliable historical reference, but I was reading "The Hunchback of Notre-Dame" and it had a section that told a little history about the architecture of Paris.

Basically, several times in the history of Paris, attempts were made to build walls to encompas the entire city. Most were relativelly unsuccessful, and those that were, were only successful for 50-100 years. The tactics to do this, were restricting the building outside city walls, and building another giant section of the wall extending way beyong the city. Eventually, the shops and houses got too crowded, and spilled beyong the walls, which triggered another round of wall building in a couple decades. But for a short period of time, there was empty space that was not filled with anything.

Basically, the moral of the story, is that a strong ruler wants to protect his city and commands a wall to be build around all the buildings in the city. Of course, he can fail depending on his personna and the layout of the city, but the desire to have some empty space is not an anomality. So as long the empty space you have is rare, or quickly fill up, the stuff you have there Toady, is totally legit. Of course, Threetoe probably knows about this more than I do, but I think it's totally legit.

AFAIK it is quite typical big cities:
Rome walls google search: - http://nolli.uoregon.edu/wallsOfRome.html - at least 5 different attempts
Paris - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_walls_of_Paris  ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Enceintesp.jpg )

EDIT: Anatoli, I only wanted to confirm that "The Hunchback of Notre-Dame" is right.

[Anatoli]

It isn't something I tried to stop, because of a historical map I saw with some farmland inside a wall much like this, but I do think it is kind of strange.  I'm not sure they'd want to rebuild it that way the first time the outer buildings get burned, so I'm also not sure if it'll last up to the army stuff, but I'll have to look at more example images from history and whether the one I saw was a total anomaly.  It should probably prefer to fill out the interior -- right now it just spills out buildings from the keep area.

I'm not sure if it's a reliable historical reference, but I was reading "The Hunchback of Notre-Dame" and it had a section that told a little history about the architecture of Paris.

Basically, several times in the history of Paris, attempts were made to build walls to encompas the entire city. Most were relativelly unsuccessful, and those that were, were only successful for 50-100 years. The tactics to do this, were restricting the building outside city walls, and building another giant section of the wall extending way beyong the city. Eventually, the shops and houses got too crowded, and spilled beyong the walls, which triggered another round of wall building in a couple decades. But for a short period of time, there was empty space that was not filled with anything.

Basically, the moral of the story, is that a strong ruler wants to protect his city and commands a wall to be build around all the buildings in the city. Of course, he can fail depending on his personna and the layout of the city, but the desire to have some empty space is not an anomality. So as long the empty space you have is rare, or quickly fill up, the stuff you have there Toady, is totally legit. Of course, Threetoe probably knows about this more than I do, but I think it's totally legit.

AFAIK it is quite typical big cities:
Rome walls google search: - http://nolli.uoregon.edu/wallsOfRome.html - at least 5 different attempts
Paris - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_walls_of_Paris  ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Enceintesp.jpg )

I have to acknowledge you're smarter than I am in terms in time spent. However, I do wander if it is better to put three hyperlinks without explanation, or explain what and why without hyperlinks in terms of user-friendliness. What do you prefer more, Toady?

[Kogut]

Unfortunately it is obvious that roads are pre-generated and ignore city size. Maybe  pre-generating and hiding part of roads in villages/smaller towns may be interesting?

mockup based on map2town4:
before:


after:


EDIT: road->roads

[Knight Otu]

I have to admit some amusement at the placement of a few necromancer towers in world 2. One is pretty close to a mayor road (enough to be on the road in the map) on that western island, another in a good area...

And in world 1, there don't seem to be any, presumably due to a lack of death gods. Are the necromancy secrets generated regardless of the presence of death gods?

[Neonivek]

One solution that was often done was that they would build walls around a limited section of a city or town and that would be the fort (I am sure it had a different name)

People, during an attack, would seek protection either in the woods or the fortress.

So you don't always need a wall around the entire city or town.

I am surprised though that now places taken over will have construction in them.

[Rip0k]

Unfortunately it is obvious that road are pre-generated and ignore city size. Maybe  pre-generating and hiding part of roads in villages/smaller towns may be interesting?

Must say that I agree. That empty web of roads looks rather silly to me.

[Footkerchief]

Unfortunately it is obvious that roads are pre-generated and ignore city size. Maybe  pre-generating and hiding part of roads in villages/smaller towns may be interesting?

It sounds like those aren't necessarily roads:

Those are supposed to delineate the plots for different purposes.  A small town that just got a market will essentially use the village code I'm getting to.  It just also has the market, a keep (because we have a profusion of those), and a few specialized workshops.  They all use the manorish map system, which isn't ideal since there should be other kinds of villages, but it isn't about having a road for wagons or something.  It is just a boundary.  The larger towns will also use the village stuff for the plots remaining open.

eg: http://www.designsofwonder.com/images/MapImages/plan_mediaeval_manor.jpg

[Rip0k]

o! thanks Footkerchief. Now all this make sense

[tfaal]

Is there some legend I could use to tell the intended purpose of all these buildings? In particular, what's with the cluster of red buildings in World 1 City 1?

[Sizik]

Is there some legend I could use to tell the intended purpose of all these buildings? In particular, what's with the cluster of red buildings in World 1 City 1?

You can compare building colors with their contents using the screenshots in this devlog post, but those red buildings aren't featured.

[Toady One]

I don't have a key here (I'm at Zach's), but the red/green/brown rectangle that are grouped together are the market square.  Each one of those is a collection of stalls.  Red is the butcher, green is plants, and brown are constructed goods from other cities.  The proportions are based on the proportions available on the site at the time the market was set up, but market cleaning will involve sorting that a bit.  I'm not sure if it's correct.  I'll have to run the stockpile numbers.

You can see the rectangle groupings in this old dev image: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/imgs/market.png.

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/imgs/map2town6.png
This image is different from the others as well, not just because it is small, but because they've apparently come upon hard times.  All the white buildings are abandoned.  It's still a place people come to sell vegetables, but apparently it once supported more people.

[EmeraldWind]

Unfortunately it is obvious that roads are pre-generated and ignore city size. Maybe  pre-generating and hiding part of roads in villages/smaller towns may be interesting?

It sounds like those aren't necessarily roads:

Those are supposed to delineate the plots for different purposes.  A small town that just got a market will essentially use the village code I'm getting to.  It just also has the market, a keep (because we have a profusion of those), and a few specialized workshops.  They all use the manorish map system, which isn't ideal since there should be other kinds of villages, but it isn't about having a road for wagons or something.  It is just a boundary.  The larger towns will also use the village stuff for the plots remaining open.

eg: http://www.designsofwonder.com/images/MapImages/plan_mediaeval_manor.jpg

Interesting, so we probably won't know exactly what a bigger town looks like until the village code is done.

Will town maps like the one you posted be available to export through Legends Mode (once an adventure visits a town) or will they remain a dev only visual?

Basically, I'm asking if a city/town site map will be exportable in the format shown in the dev log or not.

[Cruxador]

Red is the butcher, green is plants, and brown are constructed goods from other cities.

So it's a butcher a grocer, and a trader/hardware store? Are we going to get more specific in-period names for businesses that are used within the game?

[Dsarker]

The butcher, the grocer, and the candlestick maker.