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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1205805 times)

Shadowlord

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2640 on: October 28, 2011, 08:14:59 pm »

How about... Adventure Time  8)
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Dwarf Fortress Map Archive

EmeraldWind

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2641 on: October 28, 2011, 09:27:11 pm »

Quote from: DevLog
Next I created a new world and started up a dwarven adventurer. Because dwarven sites on the world map are still blank, you start in a human village as usual. I walked day and night through the wilderness to get back to one of these blank sites and finally stumbled drowsily into the mountains, where it let me retire. I then created a dwarf fortress from the same civilization and waited for immigrants. It was only year 3, so without a large roster to choose from, my dwarven adventurer showed up to be a hard-working citizen... although he fell asleep on the edge of the map since it hadn't reset his drowsiness. Any dwarves from your abandoned fortresses should also show up in subsequent forts, whether originally historical or not, as long as you are with the same overall dwarven civilization.

Nice. I think this is kind of cool.

Time Scale Discussion:

I'd like to point out something here. Isn't it possible for Toady to just expand the scale. I mean you don't really need to make the game do more or less calculations, just make it so that time itself is recorded differently.

For example, making a year last twice as long can be independent of the gameplay for the most part. Right now a dwarf and a goblin can fight for three days and the same fight can take place in Adventure Mode in less than a day. So it's not like things are getting done faster in fortress mode... in fact they are happening slower based on the game world's time frame.

I think it should be pointed out that generally DF doesn't use the Timescale to calculate stuff, instead it uses the ticks unit. (To be clear, Timescale is days, month, year calculation of time used to relate to the player how much "time" has passed and ticks is how the game actually counts time. From reading the wiki Dwarves move based on ticks, so changing the Timescale will have no effect on the Dwarves moving or doing their jobs. Timescale itself is based on ticks. In fortress mode: 1 day = 1200 ticks. In adventure mode: 1 day = 86400 ticks. So a dwarf in adventure mode can do things at 72 times the speed of a dwarf in a fort in relative time.)

The biggest things influenced by Fortress mode's time scale are when the traders come, when seasons change, and when the year flips. Setting the scale to be twice as long mostly means you'd get twice as much done in a year, but migrants, trades, and possibly harvests (assuming these are linked to the timescale and not ticks) will happen less frequently. So you'll probably end up with twice as many trade goods, but have less opportunities to trade them until the caravan arc balances that.
The other problem lies in dwarves will consume twice as much food and drink in a 2x timescale due to the fact their eating and drinking habits are synced to the timescale but dependent on tick count. Though this can be changed if it is a problem (though honestly, I don't see that being a problem as it is far too easy to have surplus food and drink). 

It is mostly a question of can you deal with having longer gaps between trades. It doesn't need to change anything else really, some things might be changed to make them take a more realistic time, but that is merely a possibility. It doesn't need to have any performance issues or fast-forwards because the game will still appear to run at the same speeds, the time it takes a year to pass is longer.
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G-Flex

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2642 on: October 28, 2011, 09:52:47 pm »

I think it should be pointed out that generally DF doesn't use the Timescale to calculate stuff, instead it uses the ticks unit.

Not entirely true. Age, gestation periods, creature growth, and that sort of thing rely strictly on game-world time. Plant growth is also linked to time and the seasons. These things don't matter as much as trade does, but they do matter.
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2643 on: October 28, 2011, 11:34:02 pm »

Is it planned to fix in this release bug 972 (Diplomat/liaison arrives, immediately dies of old age (and other old age issues)) to prevent automatic death of all mortal historic figures appearing in old forts?

And is it planned to fix (in new version or following bugfixes) impossible mandates (slade - bug #782, blue jay tooth etc - bug #1623) due to strange preferences (wagon wood - bug #3676 etc) - as common workaround is to never assign sheriff position, what will be impossible in new version.
It is planned to fix the bugs. It is not planned at any particular time.
Toady, thanks for info.</sarcasm>
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Dae

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2644 on: October 28, 2011, 11:37:53 pm »

If there was some CPU power left by DF and it was only slowed down for the sake of readability, fast-forwarding would be easy.

Instead, the only thing that I see would be to abstract some of the more down to earth details, like pathfinding and so on, and only keep track of what jobs there are that need be done and simulating quickly how long they would need, how many people could do it, etc. Basically, assign jobs, click the "see you in 4 months" button and there you are. You could probably be stopped by sieges/attacks/traders, too.

Basically, what is lacking is this simulation, which should get some love as soon as fortress autonomy is on the table. It could even come before, since it wouldn't require the fortress to think of self-sustenance and just leave this responsibility to you.
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EmeraldWind

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2645 on: October 28, 2011, 11:59:03 pm »

I think it should be pointed out that generally DF doesn't use the Timescale to calculate stuff, instead it uses the ticks unit.

Not entirely true. Age, gestation periods, creature growth, and that sort of thing rely strictly on game-world time. Plant growth is also linked to time and the seasons. These things don't matter as much as trade does, but they do matter.

I did say generally. My point was mostly that you can adjust the Timescale without breaking much. Timescale and ticks are pretty well separated that changes can be made to the scale to incorporate some more time. Some stuff might fall out of sync that rely on ticks, but are synced to game time (like eating/drinking). All the stuff that relies on the game time will still work and simply take longer to happen from the player's perspective. Some of this might need to be adjusted for balance purposes, if such a change was made.

I mostly pointed this out due to some people hearing about an expanded scale and immediately saying it would make things slower and start talking about a fast forward option to get things done faster. But expanding the timescale enough to allow for a day/night cycle might make the seasons and years longer, but it wouldn't really slow down the gameplay just the occurrence of certain events.

I also pointed out that keeping the gameplay at a consistent speed, but expanding the timescale doesn't really break the realism as Adventurer/Fortress mode dwarves do things in the same amount of ticks, but the timescale makes fortress dwarves seem ridiculously slow. As what takes an adventurer dwarf hours can take the fortress dwarf days. I should also point out that fortress mode doesn't need to run on the same scale as adventure mode, but closing the gap a bit wouldn't really hurt either way. This isn't a suggested solution or a really serous one either, just pointing out that the timescale could be changed rather easily and would ultimately be more of a game balance issue rather than something that needs fixed perfectly.
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Rip0k

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2646 on: October 29, 2011, 02:06:03 am »

So If an adventurer shows up in my fortress, will he bring all the stuff I've gathered in his backpack? Can he be of other race than dorf?
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Kogut

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2647 on: October 29, 2011, 02:14:12 am »

Can he be of other race than dorf?[/color]
Probably not - but maybe as merchant?
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G-Flex

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2648 on: October 29, 2011, 02:56:44 am »

I did say generally. My point was mostly that you can adjust the Timescale without breaking much. Timescale and ticks are pretty well separated that changes can be made to the scale to incorporate some more time. Some stuff might fall out of sync that rely on ticks, but are synced to game time (like eating/drinking). All the stuff that relies on the game time will still work and simply take longer to happen from the player's perspective. Some of this might need to be adjusted for balance purposes, if such a change was made.

What would you be able to adjust without severely screwing with how reasonable worldgen or fort mode play is? You would need to make humans grow old and die within a year or so in order to maintain the current generational flow, for instance. Things would have to happen too fast (in terms of world-time) to make sense.
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jellsprout

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2649 on: October 29, 2011, 05:11:01 am »

Another problem is that the various tasks in Fortress Mode have unrealistic timescales compared to each other. For example, it takes about as much time to get plump helmets and a barrel from the next room as it takes to brew them into booze. If the timescales in Fortress Mode will eventually become more realistic, this will also need to get fixed.
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Dsarker

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2650 on: October 29, 2011, 08:04:46 am »

Does the recent devlog mean that we can create a race with an adventurer-only caste, and have one of our adventurers of that caste show up? Does it prefer historical figures to generated?
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Rockphed

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2651 on: October 29, 2011, 10:00:45 am »

So, based on the new devlog, our old fortress inhabitants might show up in our new fortress?  Cool.  So if I spend a dozen in game years at a site with absolutely no invasions, get bored and abandon, my legendary military might show up at the new fortress.

Toady, how does immigrating to a new fortress affect things like artifact creation?  Can my smith who was possessed in my last fort immigrate and get a fey mood in a new fort, or will he be billed as "creator of libushtastic" even though said artifact is still moldering in the halls of the old fortress?

Also, will immigrants from other fortresses have the same list of preferences in the new fort as the old?

Also, relating to the question about adventurers and backpacks, will immigrants from old forts be wearing the same thing they were when the fort was abandoned?
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2652 on: October 29, 2011, 01:12:58 pm »

Does the recent devlog mean that we can create a race with an adventurer-only caste, and have one of our adventurers of that caste show up? Does it prefer historical figures to generated?

Based on this snippet from the devlog, it's picking randomly from the entire civ population with no special weighting:
Quote
It was only year 3, so without a large roster to choose from, my dwarven adventurer showed up to be a hard-working citizen

Also, will immigrants from other fortresses have the same list of preferences in the new fort as the old?

I think this one is a definite yes.  The issue with prefs was that world gen historical figures weren't getting them at all, but a given historical figure's prefs should be consistent regardless.
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caknuck

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2653 on: October 29, 2011, 01:45:50 pm »

So if I happen to get an adventurer who likes spears, horse leather and cows for their haunting moos, then maybe I should retire him early for future fortress life?
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Cruxador

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2654 on: October 29, 2011, 01:50:03 pm »

Does the recent devlog mean that we can create a race with an adventurer-only caste, and have one of our adventurers of that caste show up? Does it prefer historical figures to generated?

Based on this snippet from the devlog, it's picking randomly from the entire civ population with no special weighting:
Quote
It was only year 3, so without a large roster to choose from, my dwarven adventurer showed up to be a hard-working citizen
That implies that a historical figure's meta role isn't a factor, but it doesn't imply no weighting. It would make sense for personalities. To play into it.
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