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[Armok]

Hmm, is it just me or is the inconsistent time scales of fortress mode getting more and more ridiculous and suspension-of-disbelief shattering consequences?

[CharlesPeter]

Is there a reason that the timescales ARE so inconsistent? Couldn't it just be the same scale as adventure mode and then rework the time it takes for production (work, farms, etc) an have the year just be really long? And if people got pissed there could be a fast-forward button (which wouldn't work quite as well in DF but w/e). Because as it stands now, everything has to be coded twice just to fit into Fortress mode.

[G-Flex]

And if people got pissed there could be a fast-forward button (which wouldn't work quite as well in DF but w/e)

That's precisely the problem; in most circumstances, DF is already running as fast as it can, so a "fast-forward" feature wouldn't be plausible.

Basically, people would complain if a year in fortress mode took, what is it, 72 times as long as it currently does? At 100 FPS (which is quite fast), it would take about 72 hours of gameplay to play through one year of fortress mode. Playing a fortress for just ten years (which shouldn't be considered very long-term, even, at least not ideally) would take an entire month of the game running constantly and never being paused. And that's assuming a very nice framerate, and never making any designations or otherwise pausing.

So you see the problem. I don't like the time dilation in fortress mode either, but I don't see a good solution to it.

[Footkerchief]

Hmm, is it just me or is the inconsistent time scales of fortress mode getting more and more ridiculous and suspension-of-disbelief shattering consequences?

Yeah.  I'm afraid it's becoming more and more of a boat anchor on my beloved Adventure Mode. 

That's precisely the problem; in most circumstances, DF is already running as fast as it can, so a "fast-forward" feature wouldn't be plausible.

A fast-forward with full simulation wouldn't be possible, but an abstracted fast-forward, while it poses a number of difficulties, is a looming potential necessity.  Although I guess if people are playing Fort Mode to watch dwarves' real-time antics, a FF button wouldn't be enough to make a slower timescale palatable.

[CharlesPeter]

I can understand there being an abstracted fast-forward button in the future, with the Kingdom mode or whatever it is that's planned.

That would be a further separate time scale wouldn't it? I can definitely see this becoming a problem that gets put off until it can't wait anymore.

Maybe that's just the way Toady has always envisioned it; each part of the game comprising a different scope of time, with Legends being the whole thing, Kingdom being the largest scale, then Fortress and finally Adventure being the actual day to day. And in these cases too, not only the time-scale telescopes, but also the amount of control. I think that's kind of interesting. Legends has no control, Kingdom would logically have control over a large group with the day to day operations left out, and Fortress takes on a relatively small group with the building aspect, and Adventure a single person.

This time scale thing seems to be pretty inherent in the function of the game actually. Has Toady ever made any statements about his plans on the differences in time/scale?

[darkflagrance]

I'm curious as to whether you've thought seriously about procedurally generated poetry and text, and the depth of complexity you'd hope to have in each, and your goals, both in regards to their practicality to the player for things such as trade or gathering information (more "artistic" or "well-written" texts being worth more, divine texts being useful to gain an idea of a god's sphere alignments, poetry/warsongs giving the player an idea of the elves' gracefulness or the goblin's brutishness) for any procedurally generated texts - unless these were all elaborate in-jokes I failed to get

[Chromasphere]

regarding timescales:   As Adventure mode starts to blend with Fort mode due to the adventurer eventually being able to build walls and houses etc, the time problem will be the pimple on the nose as it were.  It will have to be dealt with in some way.  Personally, the only solution I can see is a "fast forward" button for all modes.  So all modes can Use Adventure mode timescale as default and then having a fast forward button to enter into Fort mode timescale when you want time to fly... with all it's abstractions.  I think that would be fine but it still means Toady has to code for each timescale.

[G-Flex]

Hmm, is it just me or is the inconsistent time scales of fortress mode getting more and more ridiculous and suspension-of-disbelief shattering consequences?

Sure is. The time abstraction in Fortress Mode especially breaks down when you have to deal with cycles that are just too small for it to properly deal with, like day/night. Even lunar cycles are probably going to be an issue.

[Cruxador]

My understanding is that the timescales in DF exist as they do mostly for the sake of things like traders and invasions, which you otherwise might not see many of. But traders are being redesigned now/soon, and invaders are later (and, unless I'm mistaken, are already calculated weekly). So abandoning the slowed time is looking more viable. A fast forward in the sense of "more calculations per minute" isn't viable, but something like the current fastforwarding, where things like time, movement and work happen more quickly than is realistic is a viable option, I think. And an FPS cap toggle for those of us whose fortresses don't calculate at max speed could also be useful to that end.

[G-Flex]

My understanding is that the timescales in DF exist as they do mostly for the sake of things like traders and invasions, which you otherwise might not see many of. But traders are being redesigned now/soon, and invaders are later (and, unless I'm mistaken, are already calculated weekly). So abandoning the slowed time is looking more viable. A fast forward in the sense of "more calculations per minute" isn't viable, but something like the current fastforwarding, where things like time, movement and work happen more quickly than is realistic is a viable option, I think. And an FPS cap toggle for those of us whose fortresses don't calculate at max speed could also be useful to that end.

We have a "current fastforward"?

Also, time dilation in Fortress Mode isn't just for the sake of trade. Imagine ever trying to run a multi-generational fortress. At Adventure Mode timescale, even running a fortress through the entirety of one generation would be implausible.

[Dae]

I think he means the fortress mode fastforward, compared to the adventure mode step-by-step.

[G-Flex]

Oh, right. I'm stupid.

Of course, that would mean you could, say, turn on "fortress time" to intentionally avoid the effects of things that rely on time-cycles that fortress time can't properly simulate.

Damn, why can't there be an actually good solution to this problem?

[Neonivek]

Oh, right. I'm stupid.

Of course, that would mean you could, say, turn on "fortress time" to intentionally avoid the effects of things that rely on time-cycles that fortress time can't properly simulate.

Damn, why can't there be an actually good solution to this problem?

Because if the Fortress ran in real time the game would either
A) Take forever to do everything
B) Take an unrealistically short amount of time for things to occur
or
C) I forgot what this was.

To admit... the only other way of doing it I can see is that Fortress mode runs the way it normally does. However when something vital happens the fortress shifts into real time with day and night cycles.

[G-Flex]

To admit... the only other way of doing it I can see is that Fortress mode runs the way it normally does. However when something vital happens the fortress shifts into real time with day and night cycles.

Except if you can switch time modes, either dwarves have to start moving 1/72 as fast (per tick) or start doing things 72 times as fast (in game-world time).


Also: There really is no "real time" here. I guess you could call Adventure Mode time "real time" because it's the more realistic of the two options, though.

[Neonivek]

To admit... the only other way of doing it I can see is that Fortress mode runs the way it normally does. However when something vital happens the fortress shifts into real time with day and night cycles.

Except if you can switch time modes, either dwarves have to start moving 1/72 as fast (per tick) or start doing things 72 times as fast (in game-world time).


Also: There really is no "real time" here. I guess you could call Adventure Mode time "real time" because it's the more realistic of the two options, though.

You come up with a better term that sounds just as nice and says exactly the same thing with the no explaining needed... and we will use that term