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[hoveringdog]

Look the only point that in Dwarf Fortress Evil seems to be a force. Curses exist, cursed lands exist (as well as their mechanics to become cursed), and even creatures who are evil exist. Yet good is fanciful and just as destructive and dangerous to all life. There is no benevolence only malevolence.

which is what is essentially the question

Where is the Benevolence?

There's plenty of precedent, though, in myth and fantasy literature for a good that is so pure, so otherworldly, it becomes antithetical to flawed human existence. People are too impure or just too ignorant to deal with that kind of transcendent purity or holiness. Opening that ark might melt your face off or touching that unicorn plunge the world into eternal winter. Or, you know, most of the Old Testament, where the minor sin of being an obnoxious teenager might get you curb stomped by she-bears.

[YetAnotherStupidDorf]

To clarify: Is it actually written out or does the game just tell you that is how long it is?

Almost certainly it is just description.

[Dsarker]

Look the only point that in Dwarf Fortress Evil seems to be a force. Curses exist, cursed lands exist (as well as their mechanics to become cursed), and even creatures who are evil exist. Yet good is fanciful and just as destructive and dangerous to all life. There is no benevolence only malevolence.

which is what is essentially the question

Where is the Benevolence?

There's plenty of precedent, though, in myth and fantasy literature for a good that is so pure, so otherworldly, it becomes antithetical to flawed human existence. People are too impure or just too ignorant to deal with that kind of transcendent purity or holiness. Opening that ark might melt your face off or touching that unicorn plunge the world into eternal winter. Or, you know, most of the Old Testament, where the minor sin of being an obnoxious teenager might get you curb stomped by she-bears.

Really? Never heard of that old testament story before. You sure you're not translating it incorrectly? As in using the word that is used in other parts for young adults, especially those of age to become a soldier, for teenagers? And slang that would best be translated as worthless, powerless, (saying that God is powerless and worthless by proxy) as referring to his hair (or lack thereof)?

[DG]

Please be careful with any real-world religious discussions in this thread that aren't strictly DF related.

[Dsarker]

As you wish.

[hoveringdog]

Apologies, my exaggeration for humorous effect didn't work out as I had intended. But I hope the point, with regard to fantasy and myth and how it might be potentially interpreted in DF, still makes some sense. Even the more benevolent deities and powers have their quirky taboos no mortal is allowed to violate lest they get a divine bolt to the face.

[inteuniso]

Now that writing is in, will dwarves who enter fey moods also do writings if they have the proper skills, thus becoming legendary poets?

[Willfor]

Apologies, my exaggeration for humorous effect didn't work out as I had intended. But I hope the point, with regard to fantasy and myth and how it might be potentially interpreted in DF, still makes some sense. Even the more benevolent deities and powers have their quirky taboos no mortal is allowed to violate lest they get a divine bolt to the face.

Your point is valid. However, completely uninteresting from a mechanical perspective if the only reason this happens is because they use the same AI process of choosing their targets as an [Evil] creature. We need [Good] to have the capacity for benevolence before we can have taboos that will forfeit that benevolence.

What I am saying: That eventually I would like it if I spent five days tracking a night creature who wandered into a [Good] aligned area, left a trail of corpses, and when I finally caught up to it it was stalking a unicorn. I walk up to the unicorn, and it regards me with some respect, and continues grazing. From out of the bushes comes that stalking night creature intent on unicorn blood, but I step up to defend the beast. I slay the night creature, but then from behind I hear the message "You've killed a being with a soul!" THAT is when it's a good time for the unicorn to run me through with its horn. Not before I've done something to earn its ire, but after I've specifically broken its code of benevolence.

[Neonivek]

Apologies, my exaggeration for humorous effect didn't work out as I had intended. But I hope the point, with regard to fantasy and myth and how it might be potentially interpreted in DF, still makes some sense. Even the more benevolent deities and powers have their quirky taboos no mortal is allowed to violate lest they get a divine bolt to the face.

That is why I said Benevolent and not good or holy and why I said "Blessings that act like curses" originally (as that would be a malevolent good) and "Curses that act like blessings" (since that would be a benevolent evil).

[scriver]

Well, if that ever happens, I'm so starting a "Unicorns are Hypocrite Bastards" campaign.

[Willfor]

Well, if that ever happens, I'm so starting a "Unicorns are Hypocrite Bastards" campaign.

What I would find most interesting is if whether you broke the unicorn's code was determined by the personality of the unicorn. Say, some have looser standards if you killed a specifically evil creature, or some are too lazy to want to make an enemy. And then you just need to get to know the unicorn, and make sure it's not a fundamentalist before you slay a souled creature in front of it.

Edit: Yes, yes, I know, "take it to the suggestion board." However, I'm reasonably confident that this is Toady's plan for it already based on how much complexity he's aiming for in the game, and this isn't a well-planned out system for implementation. It's just me spouting off about how I see the game developing in the future. Even though I'm not the one making the game, and my word should be taken with quite a few grains of thought whenever I say "this is how I was thinking he was going with it" that is based on observation of what he's done and his listed goals alone.

[CaptainArchmage]

Now that we have books, secrets can still be find on slabs? There other places people can learn secrets?

Secrets can probably still be found on slabs. The books are actually written by the necromancers and seem to document events or people.

Now that writing is in, will dwarves who enter fey moods also do writings if they have the proper skills, thus becoming legendary poets?

If writing is a moodable skill it will probably happen. I think Toady said that literacy was not a skill that could be picked up in fortress mode. I don't think Toady ever mentioned updating moodable skills but I could be wrong.

Well, if that ever happens, I'm so starting a "Unicorns are Hypocrite Bastards" campaign.

If you do something bad to a Good creature, they will attack just as though they were any other creature. The alignment tag does not effect the method of self-defence, only [LIKES_FIGHTING] or [FLEEQUICK] or [PRONE_TO_RAGE:9001] deal with that.

Do apprentices learn the secrets directly from their masters or by using books/slabs found on their towers?

I think either way is fair, but Toady will need to confirm. It may just be that there will be a "has learned secrets of eternal life" flag that just gets checked when the apprentice signs up, abstracting the method out.

Only necromancers can have apprentices or the system will also allow other historical figures to have apprentices?

There may be equivalents to apprentices for the other night creatures, like a master vampire having a number of subordinate lesser vampires. I suspect this may not happen with werewolves. Positions in entities already allow historical figures to have some kind of apprentice, though Toady could add in something where a historical figure (i.e. adventurer or explorer) can take on apprentices.

There will be some kind of Good magic or interaction added at some point, be it healing or something that causes damage to the undead.

According to the latest devblog, the layout of towers were generated on arriving in an area, rather than during worldgen. Is this true of all worldgen locations?

[thvaz]

Willfor, people have problems with suggestions disguised as questions (greened out). It is ok to discuss them here, though.

CaptainArchmage, greened questions are for Toady(and for Footkerchief to prove that we don't know how to use the search engine). Try at least to quote Toady when answering them. It looks like you know as much as I do. Anyway, thanks for trying to help.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

According to the latest devblog, the layout of towers were generated on arriving in an area, rather than during worldgen. Is this true of all worldgen locations?

i'm pretty sure that's how it goes, i think it's been clarified on a discussion about cities several moths ago, possibly more than a year, but can't recall enough details to search for a proper quote

[Knight Otu]

According to the latest devblog, the layout of towers were generated on arriving in an area, rather than during worldgen. Is this true of all worldgen locations?

i'm pretty sure that's how it goes, i think it's been clarified on a discussion about cities several moths ago, possibly more than a year, but can't recall enough details to search for a proper quote

Yeah, I also seem to recall some discussion on the mutability of city layouts (and I've seen it happen myself). Presumably the same forces were at work here, so that should be solved, then.

The part with the sleeping undead reminded me of the same happening in a dark tower in a mod of mine with pseudo-undead, back in 40d times I think. Not sure why I didn't report it back then.

Book length is quite certainly based on the number of events/facts transcribed therein. There presumably are other variables, of course, so that it isn't a 1 event is 1 page thing (whether on an event basis or based on how purple and flowery the prose is).