Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Lac]

I didn't expect Toady to start talking about his kinks with goats!

I'm wondering what will kill a were-rabbit.  Look at the bones!

[Appelgren]

I was against goblins not having to eat until I started to think of them as eternally hungry rather than always sated. Eating all kinds of disgusting things if they have the chance - while still surviving forever without any sustenance.

[metime00]

i could picture goblins herding pigs, feeding them with the remains of their dead and war prisoners they wouldn't eat themselves, and pasturing them on the caverns

Now that you mention it, I remember Toady talking about herding in world gen being what he needed to work on before he made goblins have to eat. Somebody go look into the last couple DF Talks or FoTF posts by Toady to confirm.

And the problems with kobolds dying in world gen is caused by the lack of options in world gen, but next few updates will see more movement on the world map and eventually moving caravans to mitigate the extreme surplus/starvation cycles in world gen, as well as make it possible for kobolds to procure their food.


On the subject of zerg rushing elves and immortal goblins:
1. Goblins (in Tolkien) were corrupted elves, and thus are immortal, albeit a tortuous life. The most fitting comparison is Gollum's long life, aka a pathetic and painful existence.
2. Cannibal, immortal, only-wood-using elves with the actual repercussions immortality has on the populations, aren't trying to be Tolkien's elves. They are Toady's elves, and his vision is different than Tolkien's. The Dwarf Fortress elves are more nature-oriented, seeking to emulate nature in eating the corpses of fallen foes, or communing with animals. They are less civilized in the human sense because they embrace their natural instincts and bring themselves to the same level as animals. Animals breed rapidly, so do elves.

If you want Tolkien's elves, find or make a mod, it's why the raws are there. Vanilla DF can't cater to everyone's favorite interpretations of fantasy races.

I hope that cleared up some of the issues people are having with the currently unfinished and unbalanced world gen and Toady's design decisions.

[thvaz]

i could picture goblins herding pigs, feeding them with the remains of their dead and war prisoners they wouldn't eat themselves, and pasturing them on the caverns

Now that you mention it, I remember Toady talking about herding in world gen being what he needed to work on before he made goblins have to eat. Somebody go look into the last couple DF Talks or FoTF posts by Toady to confirm.

And the problems with kobolds dying in world gen is caused by the lack of options in world gen, but next few updates will see more movement on the world map and eventually moving caravans to mitigate the extreme surplus/starvation cycles in world gen, as well as make it possible for kobolds to procure their food.


On the subject of zerg rushing elves and immortal goblins:
1. Goblins (in Tolkien) were corrupted elves, and thus are immortal, albeit a tortuous life. The most fitting comparison is Gollum's long life, aka a pathetic and painful existence.
2. Cannibal, immortal, only-wood-using elves with the actual repercussions immortality has on the populations, aren't trying to be Tolkien's elves. They are Toady's elves, and his vision is different than Tolkien's. The Dwarf Fortress elves are more nature-oriented, seeking to emulate nature in eating the corpses of fallen foes, or communing with animals. They are less civilized in the human sense because they embrace their natural instincts and bring themselves to the same level as animals. Animals breed rapidly, so do elves.

If you want Tolkien's elves, find or make a mod, it's why the raws are there. Vanilla DF can't cater to everyone's favorite interpretations of fantasy races.

I hope that cleared up some of the issues people are having with the currently unfinished and unbalanced world gen and Toady's design decisions.

No, it did not. First, you are not Toady. Toady only said goblins won't need to eat, but didn't explain why yet. When it is explained, we may like it or not. Second, I'm fine with Toady's elves. Third, gollum was not a goblin. He had long life because of the ring.

You are however correct on the fact world gen is unfinished and unbalanced, and is a work in progress. This doesn't mean we shouldn't debate the current issues.

[jellsprout]

Toady do you mean Goblins don't need to eat in any future update or that Goblins won't need to eat until you can get it working properly?

Toady: Could you clairify a bit on the "Goblins don't need to eat" bit? Just curious how that's going to play out and what the reasoning behind it is (from a world lore perspective). Also, even if goblins don't eat what about any other future carnivorous civs? Wolfmen or the like? Do you see yourself adding in herding-based civilizations to accommodate that? Even in our history we have examples of very successful civilizations that did very little actual farming and mostly just herded animals around. The Mongols are probably the best example of that.

In any future update.  I know a few people were dismissive of our decision and called it a cop out, but we thought about these situations (including the Mongols) and rejected them.  Goblins that herd meat animals are insufficiently scary to us.  Goblins that die exclusively violent deaths in great numbers in a potentially vegetationless wasteland are better, and we want to explore a wider variety of possibilities than humans allow -- humans can be Mongols, because the Mongols were human, and we hope to support some human variety eventually.  There are beak dog considerations, etc., but those aren't fundamental -- wrangling some critters isn't as image-shattering as having large herds of meat animals ranging over grasslands with goblin ranchers.

Source: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg2243858;topicseen#msg2243858

[metime00]

Oh! I guess I misread that. Disregard what I said about that, sorry.

No, it did not. First, you are not Toady. Toady only said goblins won't need to eat, but didn't explain why yet. When it is explained, we may like it or not. Second, I'm fine with Toady's elves. Third, gollum was not a goblin. He had long life because of the ring.

You are however correct on the fact world gen is unfinished and unbalanced, and is a work in progress. This doesn't mean we shouldn't debate the current issues.

I redacted my first point above with my misinformation, and I think jellsprout cleared up any questions about Toady's intentions on Goblins eating.
good find, jellsprout!

If you like the elves, then my comments were not directed at you. I rather like the more flawed elves in Dwarf Fortress than the Tolkien ones.

Third, I was using Gollum as an analogy for the kind of life goblins/orcs have. Gollum was corrupted by the ring and was granted long life, albeit a miserable one. Goblins, likewise, have an immortal but miserable life, as they were corrupted by Morgoth(I think). They both suffer similarly in their lives.

On debating issues that will probably be resolved with future updates as is(meaning kobolds starving), it just seems like people are talking about it as if the current version exists in a vacuum, without factoring in the future caravan arc updates into their arguments. But I guess that's just pedantic on my part.

On the previous subject on whether the goblins should be uneating, regardless of whether they're intended to be that way ever, I think that the "look and feel" of the goblins is far more important than whether they adhere to constraints of realism.

[darkflagrance]

I for one am fine with goblins from a mechanics standpoint, because it means you can torture them forever without worrying about them dying of starvation or old age.

I'm sure that Threetoe would be able to work this possibility into a story somehow to legitimize it, perhaps as the punishment for an especially evil goblin warlord.

[piecewise]

What form will Were-animals take? Will they be half man half animal or will people just become animals. I mean, a demonic satyr half goat half man is pretty awesome, but just becoming a goat...less so. 

[KillerClowns]

Weregoat would make a great name for a death metal band. That is all.

[Karnewarrior]

What form will Were-animals take? Will they be half man half animal or will people just become animals. I mean, a demonic satyr half goat half man is pretty awesome, but just becoming a goat...less so. 

A demonic goat.

With sharp teeth. And probably eyes that are on fire.

[metime00]

the only counter is the werechupacabra. Or worse, a goat that's a werechupacabra. Why are goats scary anyway?

I hope there's a curse to make someone a faun like in Pan's Labyrinth.

[MasterMorality]

I like Toady's elves - they're at least a little original. Tolkien elves are fine, but they're in every other fantasy setting. Why would you want them in this one?

And Goblins not needing to eat...
If a convincing setting base answer can be given, I have no problem with it.

[Knigel]

Has Toady yet mentioned if animal-transformation curses can be given to non-humanoids or the limits on what animals can cause a were-curse?

[Caldfir]

Has Toady yet mentioned if animal-transformation curses can be given to non-humanoids or the limits on what animals can cause a were-curse?

That's actually an entertaining point; depending on how they are coded, worldgen might just select notable historical figures to get transformed.  This would mean that all kinds of insane things might spring up!

Then again it might be pulling from civ pops... but again then people's pet cats or whatever might end up werecreatures... and what if your goat was a weregoat?

I don't think it probaby makes sense to have non-humanoid things get infected and become were-stuff, but it would be entertaining either way. 

[Sean Mirrsen]

Imagine a crazy cat lady who everyone dismisses as harmless, until one night she seizes the throne of the human empire using an army of giant demonic flying spiders, that came out of nowhere and disappeared the next day.