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[Knight Otu]

I wonder if it would be ok for people if, between the content releases and the 1-2 weeks of bugfixing, there would be 1-2 weeks of sponsorship coding with an additional release (with or without the weekend sponsorship coding for the content releases). It seems to me that could help with getting the animals done. Yes, at the expense of the content releases, but Toady wants to get the drive done before the anniversary, and any attempt to do so  would seem to be at the expense of the content releases.

[Caldfir]

I don't think the devpage comment about "more than two years" is meant to be taken at face value - he's just saying that this particular one took much longer than expected. 

Realistically, squid ink is likely the most complicated rewrite of the whole batch, with many of the creatures lower down on the list getting progressively more like "generic quadruped X". 

[Knight Otu]

I don't think the devpage comment about "more than two years" is meant to be taken at face value - he's just saying that this particular one took much longer than expected. 

Realistically, squid ink is likely the most complicated rewrite of the whole batch, with many of the creatures lower down on the list getting progressively more like "generic quadruped X".

While yes, he said that it only would take that long if each animal got that much attention, there are still a number of potential animal behaviors coming up that could at least rival squid ink in complexity if he wants to do them. I can think of at least three, with two of them being reasonably near the current batch of animals.

[Jiri Petru]

To reiterate what I and others have said before, I'd rather see more meaningful and fundamental differentiation of animals before seeing more of them. There's no real point in having twelve different kinds of bears if bears and cats aren't even really differentiated yet except in size, for example, and when there are more fundamental issues with bodies and parts and tissues.

This. Hundred times this. The more animals Toady adds, the more will he have to rewrite when he eventually starts improving the basic mechanics.

[Zared]

While yes, he said that it only would take that long if each animal got that much attention, there are still a number of potential animal behaviors coming up that could at least rival squid ink in complexity if he wants to do them. I can think of at least three, with two of them being reasonably near the current batch of animals.

Beaver dams, certainly.  That involves critters building structures during play.  Sounds difficult.

The mongoose would require their anti-snake behavior.  More generally, it would mean animals fighting each other.  A short step from animals eating each other, so that carnivores need to eat too, not just grazers. 

Leeches (and later ticks and mosquitos) would require parasite tags, or at least the latching-on and blood sucking bit.  And spreading disease, at least for the last two.  Proper mosquito control involves draining stagnant pools, or making sure the water stays flowing.  So I think that by mosquito time, insects (and amphibians) should have proper lifecycles in place.  I mostly want this because it would be cool for fisherdwarfs to be catching "giant damselfly nymph" and "giant toad tadpole". 

[Knight Otu]

You've identified the three I meant, though not quite in the way I did - beaver dams (possibly with a forward look to termite mounds), parasitism, and growth stages. I kind of forgot that leeches also go into the parasite camp. Mongoose behavior with snakes could be an interaction, possibly, and syndrome classes.

[Quatch]

Eh, when I participated in the animal sponsorship I would have been sufficiently pleased if a stock animal with a humourous byline for dwarf preference made it in.

I was in no way expecting the crazy level of detail toady is putting into each... oh wait. Probably should have seen this one coming.

Anyhow, It was a donation drive where the stated promise was twofold:
*An animal with the name/description of the real animal chosen would be in vanilla DF
*Your name would be associated in a comment in the raws, if you wanted.

I'd still participate in another if thats all that got done.

[Caldfir]

While I agree that differentiation between the existing animals would be nice, the framework already exists to do that. 

Physically, the "relsize" component as well as modifying the attributes of the creatures could easily have them be more physically different, and combat-wise, substantial !!science!! would be need to be done to ensure that bear maulings and lion attacks were different kinds of events. 

The carnivore/herbivore split is the most major milestone to making the animals actually behave differently from each other.  Aside from that, the work to be done is largely repetitive research and tweaking to get each animal right.  I would assert that Toady's work on animal tags is the important part to get done, and once that's all rounded out, the community has the man(dwarf?)-power necessary to do that.  The "sponsorship animals" are turning out to be the "animals arc".

[nenjin]

In my mind, finishing this release off should be a priority. Then I think a few weeks spent addressing animals would help him make enough progress he feels like the list could be done in a reasonable time frame.

And then it'd be back to the Arc stuff, with its 2 to 5 month development time. While I've personally felt that in the grand scheme of things the Sponsored Animals are a pretty big distraction. But being that it's put food on Toady's table and he does not want to leave sponsors waiting 2 years for their results....if he decided to spend 3 months cranking out animals and delay starting the next arc, I'd understand. The Army Arc is going to be a huge endeavor anyways, maybe he'll want a break after the Caravan arc and doing Sponsored Animals would be somewhat like one.

[thvaz]

And then it'd be back to the Arc stuff, with its 2 to 5 month development time. While I've personally felt that in the grand scheme of things the Sponsored Animals are a pretty big distraction. But being that it's put food on Toady's table and he does not want to leave sponsors waiting 2 years for their results....if he decided to spend 3 months cranking out animals and delay starting the next arc, I'd understand. The Army Arc is going to be a huge endeavor anyways, maybe he'll want a break after the Caravan arc and doing Sponsored Animals would be somewhat like one.

The point is that he shouldn't be obliged to make a new tag for each sponsored animal. Quoting Quatch:

Anyhow, It was a donation drive where the stated promise was twofold:
*An animal with the name/description of the real animal chosen would be in vanilla DF
*Your name would be associated in a comment in the raws, if you wanted.

[nenjin]

He's said he's not feeling obligated at least once. It's more a matter of telling himself that, perhaps, not every animal needs a super developed behavioral routine, even if it occurs to him it could have one.

[jockmo42]

I understand that these are sponsorship animals, and that donations were given under the pretenses of their addition, but I don't see any reason for Toady to give himself a real time limit on them as long as he adds the occasional animal every now and then.

He feels that waiting more then a year is cheating and doing things halfheartedly.

At least that is the impression I get.

Yeah, I'm asserting that he shouldn't feel that way, since any animal donors should be satisfied with simply supporting development no matter when their chosen animal gets put in the game (as long as it's added at some point). I also understand that he isn't as much of a dick as I am, though.

[Untelligent]

As a dabbling modder, I highly support Toady's decision to introduce new tags via the animals.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

animal donors

*chuckle* do they happen to be animals themselves or did they donate animals?

[jockmo42]

animal donors

*chuckle* do they happen to be animals themselves or did they donate animals?

Oh pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff.