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[Toaster]

Jim:

Toaster: A few things.

I need to study Okami's interactions to see what can be gleaned from them, but here's this first.   More will come later.

So, anything come from that? Unfulfilled promises of scumhunting set me on edge.

Not really.  Nothing useful, just some WIFOM in guessing his motives.

Can you explain what about Okami No Rei made him ping low on your scumdar? What's more, you never really said anything about him. You only answered questions directed from him to you. Did nothing about him set you off?

I wish Beginner's Mafias didn't have such a high replacement rate, because there's stuff I'd ask anzki4 and Supercharazad if they were still around.

I found him to be aggressive and interested in finding scum.  I didn't see any holes in his armor, and I had other targets I was more interested in.

Why not ask the replacements?  I'm going to.


On Super/Heliman, Super tunneled the hell out of Taricus early on, which is either scummy or lazy.  I'm going with lazy, because of this post.

Why?  He missed the vital point that Okami, scum, was dead.  I've seen several instances of people missing something like that, and I've never found them to be actually reliable for finding scum.  However, this one is different- Okami was dead scum instead of dead town.  I think that if Super was scum, he'd have no trouble remembering that his scumbuddy was dead.  It's far from conclusive, but it makes me think that Super (and therefore Heliman) is town.


Breadbocks:  You, however, I think are scum.

Here anzki posts that he has suspicions without saying what they are nor doing anything about them- a weak post overall.  Here a lot of suspicion is being spread for weak reasons, and again not much is done about them.  When he finally votes on it, it's for a terrible reason- a broken quote.   Really?  Shit happens and this is the best vote on it?

I realize that was your predecessor and you can't directly answer for what he did, but the actions are still there.  However, I'm not done.

After you replace, you start D2 by voting me for voting Powder, saying I'm looking for an excuse to bandwagon.  You seem to completely ignore my D1 case against him.  Once I remind you of that case, you vote Powder with what is basically a rehash of old arguments.  You don't bring anything else to the table.

So I ask you now, if it's not you, who is scum?  Why?

[Toaster]

Also, LNCP: I think Jack A T said he'd replace.

[Heliman]

So you're not going to address the contradiction I pointed out? Treating the mod timer like it was not a big deal at the time sort of invalidates the defense you made.

Here anzki posts that he has suspicions without saying what they are nor doing anything about them- a weak post overall.  Here a lot of suspicion is being spread for weak reasons, and again not much is done about them.  When he finally votes on it, it's for a terrible reason- a broken quote.   Really?  Shit happens and this is the best vote on it?

A horrible reason for voting is more indicative of a newbie than a scum. It's rather common for greenhorn town to have crazy and outlandish theories like that.

So I ask you now, if it's not you, who is scum?  Why?

Am I the only one that's getting a Red Scare vibe from this? Toaster, is there any reason why you ask questions irrelevant to your case? Because to me, it just looks like you're trying to lock-up his scumhunting.

[Jim Groovester]

Not really.  Nothing useful, just some WIFOM in guessing his motives.

So why'd you say it?

Why did you forget to mention it later?

Can you explain what about Okami No Rei made him ping low on your scumdar? What's more, you never really said anything about him. You only answered questions directed from him to you. Did nothing about him set you off?

I wish Beginner's Mafias didn't have such a high replacement rate, because there's stuff I'd ask anzki4 and Supercharazad if they were still around.

I found him to be aggressive and interested in finding scum.  I didn't see any holes in his armor, and I had other targets I was more interested in.

And nothing about his inconsistent arguments and rapidly changing stories made you the least bit interested in asking him, oh, anything at all?

So I ask you now, if it's not you, who is scum?  Why?

Oh, well, when you phrase it like that, how can I do anything but agree?

I do want to hear from breadbocks (who hasn't posted despite being available) but I really don't like the way you're making it seem like he's the only and obvious choice here.

[Think0028]

I'll replace in again if LNCP is cool with it.

[Jack A T]

Also, LNCP: I think Jack A T said he'd replace.

Aye, I can replace.

I'll replace in again if LNCP is cool with it.

...Unless Think does.

[Think0028]

No, you go ahead, I already died, I'd feel better if someone who hasn't played yet replaced in.

[Toaster]

Heliman:

So you're not going to address the contradiction I pointed out? Treating the mod timer like it was not a big deal at the time sort of invalidates the defense you made.

Here anzki posts that he has suspicions without saying what they are nor doing anything about them- a weak post overall.  Here a lot of suspicion is being spread for weak reasons, and again not much is done about them.  When he finally votes on it, it's for a terrible reason- a broken quote.   Really?  Shit happens and this is the best vote on it?

A horrible reason for voting is more indicative of a newbie than a scum. It's rather common for greenhorn town to have crazy and outlandish theories like that.

So I ask you now, if it's not you, who is scum?  Why?

Am I the only one that's getting a Red Scare vibe from this? Toaster, is there any reason why you ask questions irrelevant to your case? Because to me, it just looks like you're trying to lock-up his scumhunting.

I don't see what contradiction you're talking about.  He had plenty of time to work on his defense starting from when the votes began piling up on him, which was day start.  When I made that comment, it was past when LNCP said the day would be over.  It wasn't an opinion, it was a statement of fact.  In most of the games here, the day isn't over until the mod locks the thread.  I don't see a rule of "Once the day is over by timer, stop posting until mod gets on to lock thread."  There is frequently discussion going on between the official time of end and thread lock, and I don't recall objection to that.  So no, I don't take it seriously in the sense that I stop posting.  If the mod said to stop posting, I would.

As for breadbocks, while it may be a case of newbie town voting on a bad reason, I am unconvinced.  He's still my top pick with or without that point.

I'm encouraging him to hunt in addition to defending himself.  Town or scum, that's a good habit to have.


Jim:

Not really.  Nothing useful, just some WIFOM in guessing his motives.

So why'd you say it?

Why did you forget to mention it later?

Because I was going to do it.  I did it, and got nothing.  Not saying so later was a mistake.  Oops- oh well.  I don't know why I forgot to do so.

Can you explain what about Okami No Rei made him ping low on your scumdar? What's more, you never really said anything about him. You only answered questions directed from him to you. Did nothing about him set you off?

I wish Beginner's Mafias didn't have such a high replacement rate, because there's stuff I'd ask anzki4 and Supercharazad if they were still around.

I found him to be aggressive and interested in finding scum.  I didn't see any holes in his armor, and I had other targets I was more interested in.

And nothing about his inconsistent arguments and rapidly changing stories made you the least bit interested in asking him, oh, anything at all?

Nope.  I was more interested in other targets at the time.

So I ask you now, if it's not you, who is scum?  Why?

Oh, well, when you phrase it like that, how can I do anything but agree?

I do want to hear from breadbocks (who hasn't posted despite being available) but I really don't like the way you're making it seem like he's the only and obvious choice here.

See response to Heliman on that one.

[breadbocks]

Breadbocks:  As a replacee yourself, what do you think having a second replacement will do to the game?

Not much. I think we'll need to grill him all the harder to pick apart his mind.

Breadbocks:  You, however, I think are scum.

Here anzki posts that he has suspicions without saying what they are nor doing anything about them- a weak post overall.  Here a lot of suspicion is being spread for weak reasons, and again not much is done about them.  When he finally votes on it, it's for a terrible reason- a broken quote.   Really?  Shit happens and this is the best vote on it?

I realize that was your predecessor and you can't directly answer for what he did, but the actions are still there.  However, I'm not done.

After you replace, you start D2 by voting me for voting Powder, saying I'm looking for an excuse to bandwagon.  You seem to completely ignore my D1 case against him.  Once I remind you of that case, you vote Powder with what is basically a rehash of old arguments.  You don't bring anything else to the table.

So I ask you now, if it's not you, who is scum?  Why?

Well, this is awkward. You vote me before I even get the chance to answer you question. Should you continue to attack me, let it be known that the reason I didn't answer your last question right away is because I didn't have access to internet.
Anyways, to answer you. Let me straighten you out. I started D2 off with a random vote. While plenty of scum hunting was done D1, most of it was just confirming ONR. And so I took a random vote. However, your vote without the immediate "why?" which Jim pressures so much over seemed a good enough place to start from, so I pressured. I didn't get anything out of it, so I was more than a little at a loss. At that point Powder was floundering. And I felt Think made a convincing argument. I didn't need to spend 8 hours dissecting each sentence to see Powder was being silly. Are you accusing me of being vulnerable to persuasion? Sorry. I thought having an open mind was a good thing. I'll make sure to ignore clear logic next time.

As for who I think is scum? I was going to say I'd like to see what Heliman thought about his current position, seeing as how he's been NK'd once, and now he's replaced back in, how he thinks the scum would react, assuming it isn't him. Super crumpled last game when he was Scum, and the matching behavior strikes the wrong string for me.
However, Toaster, your post strikes me as scummy. Why did you wait until now to vote me, rather than in your last post, where you clearly acknowledged I existed, so why not attack me then? Why did you wait until now to call me scum? And don't claim you had nothing, because you called me out on what was already there, and nobody pacified any suspicions you were working on overnight, so why didn't you build the case on me while Think was being murdered? I smell something fishy, and it isn't the sewers.

Now, Heliman, my would-be question still stands. What do you think about your current position? You were scumkilled, and now you're back.

[Jim Groovester]

Toaster:

I'm encouraging him to hunt in addition to defending himself.  Town or scum, that's a good habit to have.

I don't believe that. Well, I don't believe that was the reason you tacked that on there at the end.

Your case is weak and you know it. Tacking "If not you then who?" adds nothing to the substance of your argument and strengthens it only superficially. It strikes me as scummy that you'd resort to something like that. So why'd you put it there?

Heliman, I'd like your read on Toaster and breadbocks (and for kicks, myself and Taricus and/or his replacement if he posts in time), as well as a summary of what your thoughts were while going through Day 2.

No special reason for this. I just want a read on you.

breadbocks, I don't think your case on Toaster is much better. It's essentially an OMGUS. I'm going to need more than an issue of timing to vote for him. What else you got?

Taricus' replacement, just post something. Anything.

My gut says Toaster at this point, but really I need to hear from everybody. At the very least, we've got a mislynch to spare.

[lordnincompoop]

Jack AT has replaced Taricus!

[Jim Groovester]

And extension, since we're probably going to need it.

[Toaster]

Breadbocks:

Breadbocks:  As a replacee yourself, what do you think having a second replacement will do to the game?

Not much. I think we'll need to grill him all the harder to pick apart his mind.

Fair enough.

As for the rest of your post, I never said your lack of response was scummy.  That wasn't a part of the case.  Your reasoning on the D2 vote is valid, but it doesn't make me think you're innocent.

As for your vote, really?  I said twice I was going to reread the thread after I made that post.  I knew it would be the next morning, so I threw out some questions to get discussion happening (again, like I said.)  Did you read that part?   It just feels like you're basing your case on something I never said or even implied.


Jim:

Toaster:

I'm encouraging him to hunt in addition to defending himself.  Town or scum, that's a good habit to have.

I don't believe that. Well, I don't believe that was the reason you tacked that on there at the end.

Your case is weak and you know it. Tacking "If not you then who?" adds nothing to the substance of your argument and strengthens it only superficially. It strikes me as scummy that you'd resort to something like that. So why'd you put it there?

If you don't believe it, too bad.  I had no other reason.

I'll grant you that the case is weak, but it's the best I have right now.


I'm down with that extension.

[lordnincompoop]

Riight, I forgot this was a 5p game now.

Votecount:
Heliman - 0-
Jack AT - 0-
breadbocks - 1 - Toaster
Jim Groovester - 0 -
Toaster - 1 - breadbocks

Not Voting - 0 - Jack AT, Heliman, Jim Groovester
No Lynch  - 0 -

Extend  - 2 - Jim Groovester, Toaster
Shorten  - 0 -


The Day will has been extended to Monday, 8PM GMT.

You need 2 to Extend and 3 to Shorten.

[Heliman]

As for who I think is scum? I was going to say I'd like to see what Heliman thought about his current position, seeing as how he's been NK'd once, and now he's replaced back in, how he thinks the scum would react, assuming it isn't him. Super crumpled last game when he was Scum, and the matching behavior strikes the wrong string for me.

My current position is interesting, but is unfortunately not very open to exploitation. I have a certain tell that in mind that could occur as a result of this, but it would be a primarily subjective argument. Also I have as much of an idea as you all (minus one scum) do in regards to what the scum was thinking when they killed me, so I have even less of an idea of what they are thinking right now. Their thoughts could literally go across the board.

Heliman, I'd like your read on Toaster and breadbocks (and for kicks, myself and Taricus and/or his replacement if he posts in time), as well as a summary of what your thoughts were while going through Day 2.

No special reason for this. I just want a read on you.

Ah, that's alot of people. Ok, where to start...

Toaster:Aside from his bum case against powder, hasn't brought much to light with his hunting.  It felt like he was buddying me a little in this post. I also noted a "Good job!" post at the start of D2, which isn't a scum tell per se but makes me a little more suspicious. As far as how scummy he looks, I'm still trying to get a read on him.

Breadbocks: Hasn't posted often enough for me to have a good read yet, although there is a certain meta tell I'm on the lookout for with this current bout between him and Toaster. That tell may not come to fruition, but we'll see.

Taricus: Don't like Taricus. He says too little.

Jim Groovester: I started to become a little worried that there wasn't enough people probing you during D1, so I tried pressing you on something and unfortunately came up with nothing. Okami turning scum made you look very town, because you pressed him directly after I did. It still doesn't clear you entirely, but helped your case a lot. It's also very surprising that you are not dead yet.

My summary of day two: The violent ass riding of the angry and misunderstood powder miner, the sequel. Besides my previous replacement slipping up names at the beginning and Taricus leaving when under duress, that was basically everything important that went on that day.

I'm encouraging him to hunt in addition to defending himself.  Town or scum, that's a good habit to have.

Yeah, if you were encouraging him to hunt more you wouldn't be adding pressure with a vote on him, with newer players that can eventually lead to the mafia equivalent of writer's block.