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[Heliman]

@Think
Okami. Why? WHY??? Ok I'll tell you.

@Okami
I'm not falling for this load of "Oh no I was just pretending to hunt newbie scum the others scum hunting this guy are the real scum!" Bullshit. This entire charade could easily be an  attempt to quell the players suspicious of you for going after the weakest link. It doesn't automatically justify a sham of a scum hunt followed by a planned lurk, it just introduces WIFOM into the equation.

[Jim Groovester]

You're right.  I don't think he's scum.  I don't think he's not scum, either.  At this point I've been more interested in seeing the reactions to my pressing him.  Specifically, I've been using him as bait while trawling for bandwagoning scum.  That plan's over now I've said it, which is why I waited until tonight rather than last night to post again (needing to sleep and go to work played a role in the decision as well).  Now I've got a veritable mountain of reactions to sift through.

Since you're clearly not a beginner, I'll tell you straight.

That plan is stupid.

You'll just as easily catch inexperienced town as you will inexperienced scum. And since the game's full of inexperienced players, how actually worthwhile are the results you got?

To everybody else who isn't a beginner: Don't even think about trying to be clever. I don't want to see any clever plans or carefully laid traps or anything like that. If I have anything to say about it you'll learn a decent, basic, fundamental town game first, and then after you've got the basics down, then you can think about being clever.

Everybody got that? NO CLEVER PLANS. Good fundamental scumhunting habits are vastly more important.

I think this is the third time you've made it clear that you know what we expect of you, yet you continue to fail to deliver.

And there you go with that 'we' business again.

I thought I was clear. Stop that.

Okami no Rei. While I understand that Taricus is throwing a very large scumtell of active lurking and lacks meat to his attacks, I feel like he's reacting more like a inexperienced town than a bandwagoning scum. Consider that he folded almost instantly when you started pushing him and hasn't fought back. I believe as a scum he would be more concerned with his appearances, especially as a beginner on the first day. Do you think that Taricus is scum, or are you pressuring him to improve his game?

I was directing the pressure to try and improve his game, but the primary concern is to create a sufficient amount of chaos that opportunistic, inexperienced scum scramble out of the woodwork at the the smell of an easy lynch.

Hmm. You'd be way more suspicious to me if this wasn't a Beginner's Mafia, but Taricus's game needs such obvious help that this seems highly plausible. I would've done the same if you didn't. Unvote.

I don't like this exchange but I can't exactly pinpoint why.

With your first question, you say you suspect him but you don't even make a light accusation in the paragraph you voted him, and the two options you provided him are both positive. You say you suspect him slightly, but you throw him a complete softball.

And then you give it up, and say you'd find it suspicious, but it's a Beginner's game, so you don't. Why does a Beginner's game have anything to do with it? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I mean, why are you giving slack to a clearly experienced player, when the only people you should be doing that to, in a Beginner's game anyway, are beginners?

Okami no Rei isn't from the States.

The Book-or-not guessing game is tremendously fascinating but there is a game going on, as in, an actual Beginner's game, where new players play and ICs teach them, and this is distracting everybody from that.

[Powder Miner]

I actually don't know what to say for the Okami thing. I'm actually pretty confused... Oh well. Anyway, umm...

Looking at Super's posts, his points do seem rather similar to Okami's, but not to the point of bandwagoning. He's just trying to press Taricus too.

[Think0028]

Okami no Rei. While I understand that Taricus is throwing a very large scumtell of active lurking and lacks meat to his attacks, I feel like he's reacting more like a inexperienced town than a bandwagoning scum. Consider that he folded almost instantly when you started pushing him and hasn't fought back. I believe as a scum he would be more concerned with his appearances, especially as a beginner on the first day. Do you think that Taricus is scum, or are you pressuring him to improve his game?

I was directing the pressure to try and improve his game, but the primary concern is to create a sufficient amount of chaos that opportunistic, inexperienced scum scramble out of the woodwork at the the smell of an easy lynch.

Hmm. You'd be way more suspicious to me if this wasn't a Beginner's Mafia, but Taricus's game needs such obvious help that this seems highly plausible. I would've done the same if you didn't. Unvote.

I don't like this exchange but I can't exactly pinpoint why.

With your first question, you say you suspect him but you don't even make a light accusation in the paragraph you voted him, and the two options you provided him are both positive. You say you suspect him slightly, but you throw him a complete softball.

And then you give it up, and say you'd find it suspicious, but it's a Beginner's game, so you don't. Why does a Beginner's game have anything to do with it? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I mean, why are you giving slack to a clearly experienced player, when the only people you should be doing that to, in a Beginner's game anyway, are beginners?

I think I can pinpoint why because I don't like it either. I don't like Okami one bit, I've been thinking this was a stupid plan, but I've been having trouble getting a read on him. If I softball him, it's because of indecisiveness on my part. I accept it in Beginner's mafia because if this were a non-Beginner's mafia, I would read that entire chain as a failed attack on a townie leading into a springboard off to 'oh, this was all just as planned.' But since this is Beginner's, I can 1) believe he was sincerely trying to help Taricus 2) believe that a townie would come up with this plan.

But you know what? Even if this is a beginner's game, it's still mafia, and my gut reaction was that he was scum.

With Heliman posting and answering my question, I'm going to unvote and put my vote on Okami. Now that I think more about your actions and your responses, I see you as pushing for a bandwagon you didn't want to physically participate in that didn't materialize. Now that that's finished, I think you're trying to find someone to pin the blame on.

[Vector]

The Book-or-not guessing game is tremendously fascinating but there is a game going on, as in, an actual Beginner's game, where new players play and ICs teach them, and this is distracting everybody from that.

Well, that would be why I'm also jumping all over Taricus, and attempted to tie my little digression into the game at hand.

But yes, I will attempt to return to straight-up helping.

[anzki4]

Unvote Powder Miner. That is a good answer.

This response reeks of scumminess.  You're encouraging the bandwagon without actually hopping on, but why?  What 'something more' do you suspect?

anzki4 - I think you're covering for/indirectly supporting your partner, which would make Powder Miner or Supercharazad your counterpart.

What can something more possibly mean. Being a scum and pretending - at least to some degree - newbiness.

anzki4, what convinces you that Taricus is scum and not a bad player?

I have my suspicion(see above). But I am not so sure about it, that's why the blue color instead of red.

[Jim Groovester]

With Heliman posting and answering my question, I'm going to unvote and put my vote on Okami. Now that I think more about your actions and your responses, I see you as pushing for a bandwagon you didn't want to physically participate in that didn't materialize. Now that that's finished, I think you're trying to find someone to pin the blame on.

And then you reverse yourself again. Not because you really pressured him or anything but because I pointed it out to you. Why, you even call what Okami No Rei did a stupid plan, just like I did. Just after I did.

You look like you're trying to be agreeable more than you are trying to find scum, because you caved in and changed your opinion immediately after I asked you about it.

That's very suspect of you.

This response reeks of scumminess.  You're encouraging the bandwagon without actually hopping on, but why?  What 'something more' do you suspect?

anzki4 - I think you're covering for/indirectly supporting your partner, which would make Powder Miner or Supercharazad your counterpart.

Ooh, oh! Thanks for bringing this quote up. There's something I want to point out.

It's way too early to be looking for scumteams. You still want to look for scum, but by that, I mean individual scum tells. The things that a player does that give himself away. Looking for easy lynches, caving in to light pressure, generally things that make it look more like they're trying to blend in rather than find scum.

There are plenty of tells that can give up scumteams, though. Things like giving token suspicion, but never going anywhere with it, or just outright ignoring a completely scummy player. It's hard for a scumteam to interact in a way that looks natural, and so, it's often easier to simply not interact at all. You should keep your eyes open for these sorts of tells too, but you don't want to get in the mindset where you lump two players together and call them a scum team. You always want to keep an open mind with your suspicions, and trying to figure out scumteams generally causes you to ignore everybody else while you try to lynch the scumteam you've picked. That's usually a speedy way to a town loss.

So, with that said, look for and lynch scummy players, not scum teams. Keep an eye out for any odd interactions, but make sure you don't get too focused on any two players. I haven't seen too much of this in this game so far, so this is just a cautionary word.

[Okami No Rei]

Okami no Rei, who would you be most afraid of if they were scum?

Jim - Because then there'd be two scum running around with flawless towngames.

This entire charade could easily be an  attempt to quell the players suspicious of you for going after the weakest link.

Continuing to interrogate Taricus wasn't exactly getting me anywhere.  I don't like doing work and then having nothing to show for my efforts.

It doesn't automatically justify a sham of a scum hunt

A sham?  Do elaborate on this claim.  Bring evidence.

followed by a planned lurk, it just introduces WIFOM into the equation.

Planned lurk?  That's what you call knocking off for the night, and returning the next day?  I've got another four of those planned for the rest of this week.

Since you're clearly not a beginner, I'll tell you straight.

That plan is stupid.

I never said it was the peak of brilliance.  More of a salvage operation of a scumhunt gone sour.

You'll just as easily catch inexperienced town as you will inexperienced scum. And since the game's full of inexperienced players, how actually worthwhile are the results you got?

Quite worthwhile, considering I caught someone who's semi-experienced, and, as I said earlier, should know better.  I didn't think it would actually yield fruit when I came up with it.

Okami. Now that I think more about your actions and your responses, I see you as pushing for a bandwagon

Pushing for scum.  Bandwagons, like mobs, tend to form around action.

you didn't want to physically participate in

Certainly not after I saw I wasn't getting anywhere.  Like I said, I like to see results.

that didn't materialize.

Because I was the one who shut it down.

Now that that's finished, I think you're trying to find someone to pin the blame on.

Blame?  For the bandwagon?  Who?  I'm the one who started it, collapsed it, and am now hunting with its remains.

Unvote Powder Miner. That is a good answer.

This response reeks of scumminess.  You're encouraging the bandwagon without actually hopping on, but why?  What 'something more' do you suspect?

anzki4 - I think you're covering for/indirectly supporting your partner, which would make Powder Miner or Supercharazad your counterpart.

What can something more possibly mean. Being a scum and pretending - at least to some degree - newbiness.

anzki4, what convinces you that Taricus is scum and not a bad player?

I have my suspicion(see above). But I am not so sure about it, that's why the blue color instead of red.

So you think he's pretending newbiness?  Show us the evidence.  Just a hunch?  Why aren't you interrogating him yourself?  You can't just say "I think he's scum" and not be providing reasons or actively searching for them.  You're not even voting for him (or anyone else at the moment, for that matter, what's up with that?).

Toaster - You're not voting for anyone, either.   In fact, you've been remarkably passive thus far.  What do you think of Supercharazad?

I think this is the third time you've made it clear that you know what we expect of you, yet you continue to fail to deliver.

And there you go with that 'we' business again.

I thought I was clear. Stop that.

You were crystal clear.  That was a 'we' in the sense of those of us interrogating him.

[Heliman]

ah-heh heh heh, Forgot to unvote first.

Unvote
Vote Okami no Rei

I'll try to address more of your WOT tomarrow but for now-

Okami no Rei, who would you be most afraid of if they were scum?

Jim - Because then there'd be two scum running around with flawless towngames.

*does a spittake*
What? Two flawless scum? how could you possibly know that?

[Think0028]

With Heliman posting and answering my question, I'm going to unvote and put my vote on Okami. Now that I think more about your actions and your responses, I see you as pushing for a bandwagon you didn't want to physically participate in that didn't materialize. Now that that's finished, I think you're trying to find someone to pin the blame on.

And then you reverse yourself again. Not because you really pressured him or anything but because I pointed it out to you. Why, you even call what Okami No Rei did a stupid plan, just like I did. Just after I did.

You look like you're trying to be agreeable more than you are trying to find scum, because you caved in and changed your opinion immediately after I asked you about it.

That's very suspect of you.

I am aware it's very suspect, but this is the pattern I went through:

1) Made post in response to Okami, full of doubt.
2) Ruminated on doubt.
3) Saw your post, which pressed my doubts.
4) Decided to go with my doubts.

I swear up and down I thought the plan was bad beforehand, but I have no way of proving that, unfortunately, as I left that out of my posts intentionally, to avoid showing my indecision. Once you pressed it, I decided that the voice in my head shouting "don't trust Okami" is louder than the one shouting "stick with what you said." The vote on Heliman was mostly me stalling for time by waiting for some response from him so I didn't have to keep thinking about Okami. Heliman also suspecting Okami suggested to me that what I saw wasn't something I made up in my head.

[Jim Groovester]

Hrmmm.

I can understand where you're coming from.

If you say exactly what you're thinking at all times then you don't run into any problems like that, because then you'll never have to say "Well, I was thinking it at the time, but..." and run into problems when that comes back to bite you.

This leads me back into my lesson about being as transparent and open as possible. You don't want to look like you've got anything to hide or anything that you've been hiding.

But you also don't want to change your mind too often, because that looks unusual and alarming, and depending on the circumstances, looks opportunistic and scummy.

More of a salvage operation of a scumhunt gone sour.

And now you're changing up your story.

I was directing the pressure to try and improve his game, but the primary concern is to create a sufficient amount of chaos that opportunistic, inexperienced scum scramble out of the woodwork at the the smell of an easy lynch.

You could understand how somebody could get the impression that it was your plan from the start to use Taricus as bait for inexperienced scum, considering that it was apparently 'the primary concern'.

And now you're saying that it was a scumhunt gone sour.

So which is it?

Continuing to interrogate Taricus wasn't exactly getting me anywhere.  I don't like doing work and then having nothing to show for my efforts.

Ah, so I was right. You were just pressuring Taricus for show.

[Supercharazad]

No information, no motive yet. I say we attempt a stalemate for the lynch this round, call suspicions rather than voting.

Passiveness: Scumtell.

Possibly, though they get a kill reguardless if we get one of them this day or not, and whoever got killed at that night may either been onto something or completely off.

They MAY have been on to something. WIFOM right here.


Also: To everyone, I might not be playing well today due to a series of events, including kneeing my own neck, resulting in a bad cold and a neck that is very painful when I turn it. Thus, my concentration is probably going to be a bit off.

[lordnincompoop]

Votecount:
Think0028 - 0 -
Supercharazard - 1 - Okami No Rei,
Okami No Rei - 4 - Heliman, Think0028, Jim Groovester, Taricus
Powder Miner - 0 -
Taricus - 2 - Supercharazard, Powder Miner,
Heliman - 0 -
anzki4 - 0 -
Jim Groovester - 0 -
Toaster - 0 -

Not Voting - 2 - anzki4, Toaster
No Lynch  - 0 -

Extend  - 0 -
Shorten  - 0 -


The Day will end Tuesday, 8PM GMT.

You need 3 to Extend and 5 to Shorten.

[Jim Groovester]

Supercharazad, do you have an opinion on any other player in the game besides Taricus?

[Supercharazad]

Supercharizard - Hiding something?

unvote

So, as a matter of fact, I'm not.

Tell me, why the vauge RV? What possible outcome would that answer have generated other than a "no"?

Tacricus, Why the vauge RV? Also, who would prefer as your scumpartner?

Ah, many thanks Anzki.

If you know what I meant now, then why not answer?


Not answering questions, that'd be a scumtell you know.

Supercharazad - You're rehashing my arguments without providing original material, you were the third vote on the bandwagon, and judging by your post history, you've been around long enough to know better.  Explain yourself.

Actually, I didn't notice you using those arguments. But, why are you saying that I shouldn't be bandwagoning, when I have my own arguments? Are you trying to defend Tacricus?

Also,

Supercharazad - Stacking votes already?  Interesting.  In your opinion, how many votes constitutes a bandwagon in nine player RVS?

2, unless it's RVS or the second person has their own argument.

Do I really need to add 'and why?'?  How many in RVS?  Not in general.

In RVS, I think any amount of bandwagoning is fine, so long as you can give a reason and a question.

Supercharazad, do you have an opinion on any other player in the game besides Taricus?

Yes, I think Okami is defending Tacricus by voting me, which makes him my second scumpick, below Tacricus.