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What would you most like to see next from LFR?

More tech tree!
- 36 (26.1%)
More ritual tree!
- 8 (5.8%)
More lore!
- 12 (8.7%)
More mythical weapons/armor!
- 22 (15.9%)
Plagues!
- 28 (20.3%)
More secrets!
- 21 (15.2%)
More mechanical constructs!
- 11 (8%)

Total Members Voted: 137


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Author Topic: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.21a *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]  (Read 406126 times)

katana

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2685 on: October 25, 2012, 05:25:49 pm »

First- I admitted that there was small sample size, and now I have found that you're right.

Second- my game's been going for 20 already. Who knows.

Third- Sorry, last time I played was 31.25.

Fourth- We're talking roughly even numbers of non-elite dwarves VS void walkers. I think the almighty feared nigh-godlike civ deserves better than that. For their supposed deadliness, one ambush group even failed to kill a group of dwarven caravan guards.

Fifth- Assuming every weapon has an equal chance of appearing, there are apparently 60 or so "mood" weapons, and approximately 10-15 normally available weapons. This gives me roughly 80% chance to get a mood weapon per mood assuming weapon types are not weighted. I've had 3 weaponsmith moods (along with a few bone carvers, they occasionally make weapons too), all giving me weapons from my civ only.

Sixth- If I want to test something that might be a bug, am I meant to wait for every individual mood? I reloaded 9 times on the third weapon mood. If I have a 20% chance of getting a regular weapon, and I roll this 9 times in a row, I have a feeling something's not working properly.

The mod things you've gotten all sound available to the dwarves through regular crafting (sure you can't make soap shields, but you can make some form of shield etc.), so it's not the same.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 05:37:58 pm by katana »
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Stirk

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2686 on: October 25, 2012, 05:45:25 pm »

Quote
First- I admitted was due to small sample size, and have found that you're right.

Of course. I am always right.

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Second- my game's been going for 20 already. Who knows.

In it's worst case, you will end up with a dead dwarf. I can't dig a hole without losing three, not like it is a big loss.

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Third- Sorry, last time I played was 31.25.

I just assumed that a casual observer could notice "Throwing fireballs around everywhere=forest fires starting". A good deal of post have been dedicated to this, many people have built defenses around this. Pyro zingers are the other fire hazard...

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Fourth- We're talking roughly even numbers of non-elite dwarves VS void walkers. I think the almighty feared nigh-godlike civ deserves better than that.

You under-estimate the power of the crossbows. A squad of dwarves can beat a super saiyan with normal crossbows, a decent squad can take anything really.

Quote
Fifth- Assuming every weapon has an equal chance of appearing, there are apparently 60 or so "mood" weapons, and approximately 10-15 normally available weapons. This gives me roughly 80% chance to get a mood weapon per mood assuming weapon types are not weighted. I've had 3 weaponsmith moods (along with a few bone carvers, they occasionally make weapons too), all giving me weapons from my civ only.

3? How many artifacts do you have?

Quote
Sixth- If I want to test something that might be a bug, am I meant to wait for every individual mood? I reloaded 9 times on the third weapon mood. If I have a 20% chance of getting a regular weapon, and I roll this 9 times in a row, I have a feeling something's not working properly.

No- you should dissect it. Why not just go into the raws and look yourself? Much faster.

Quote
The mod things you've gotten all sound available to the dwarves through regular crafting (sure you can't make soap shields, but you can make shields etc.), so it's not the same.

Yeah- it really is. It was a heraldic shield, which you can't get, it was a top hat, which you can't make, etc.


-----------------------------

EDIT

Waitwaitwait....You have had a fortress for twenty in game years-but you don't even have a decent military of marksdwarves yet? I can get a full squad up with forty people and make them all Legendary in a year, I can't fathom how you could even live that long without a dozen guns on your side.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 05:50:07 pm by Stirk »
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katana

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2687 on: October 25, 2012, 06:27:25 pm »

I had some marksdwarf recruits at a new, further away fortification, so they found the ambush first. The whole fireball thing was a result of me being used to creatures ignoring fire when considering pathing. (which is the way it's been since fire was added until recently) I never officially knew of the change until now, and it isn't very well documented on the wiki. What am I meant to look for in the raws? I'm pretty sure that there are no tags that determine if a weapon is moodable or not. I remember you used to be unable to craft artifact armors from other civs, or something along those lines.
It might turn out that these mood weapons are weighted to be less likely or something, but I've gone 11 weaponsmith tries (3x different dwarves) without anything. While typing this, I got another possessed weaponsmith- gladius. Another readily available weapon type.

I think voidwalkers should get higher natural skills, especially dodge or shield user. Their only real advantage over dwarves appears to be equipment and size. In my opinion, one should be at least an even match for an elite (between great and legendary +0 in weapon skill) dwarf. My melee dwarves also destroy them...

I now have 4 artifact weapons:
Adamantine longsword
Adamantine longsword
Adamantine gladius
Low-grade mithril battle axe
(and an  enormous rat bone corkscrew)
All of which I can create normally.

EDIT: Just to be clear, the "mood" weapons do exist- I've gotten them from exotic weaponsmithing.
EDIT2: Random fact- the gladius' name is womenshafts.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 06:29:40 pm by katana »
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AND IF THIS FAILS MY IDENTICAL TWIN BROTHER WHO WILL APPEAR IN THE MIGRANT WAVE THAT ARRIVES AFTER MY DEMISE WILL REPLACE ME.
(Tldr: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FRIENDLY FIRE SALT)

Stirk

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2688 on: October 25, 2012, 06:53:18 pm »

Quote
I had some marksdwarf recruits at a new, further away fortification, so they found the ambush first.

Without training them first? I will have to assume you wanted them to die, and are simply disappointing that the void walkers where unable to accomplish that.

Putting ten (Being a standard squad amount) marksdwarfs at even adept level in a decent formation with silver bolts against anything from a dragon, to an exiled rift warden, to a bronze collusus. Go ahead and try it out in arena.

Quote
he whole fireball thing was a result of me being used to creatures ignoring fire when considering pathing. (which is the way it's been since fire was added until recently) I never officially knew of the change until now, and it isn't very well documented on the wiki

Did you prefer it when they got themselves burned?

Quote
What am I meant to look for in the raws? I'm pretty sure that there are no tags that determine if a weapon is moodable or not

Exactly. So why wouldn't it be moodable?....

Quote
It might turn out that these mood weapons are weighted to be less likely or something, but I've gone 11 weaponsmith tries (3x different dwarves) without anything.

Oh, so that must mean it is impossible. Put away your vanadium katana, guys! This guy says it is impossible!

Quote
I think voidwalkers should get higher natural skills, especially dodge or shield user. Their only real advantage over dwarves appears to be equipment and size. In my opinion, one should be at least an even match for an elite (between great and legendary +0 in weapon skill) dwarf. My melee dwarves also destroy them...

How many viodwalker sieges have you gone threw? It is a well balanced game, and it isn't like that will stop a hail of crossbows couldn't stop them. Your melee dwarves also destroy them, but in theory they are in admintine armor (Considering you know, the whole "Your a cheap hacker" and "you have admantine elsewhere"0

Quote
I now have 4 artifact weapons:
Adamantine longsword
Adamantine longsword
Adamantine gladius
Low-grade mithril battle axe
(and an  enormous rat bone corkscrew)
All of which I can create normally.

Three admantine weapons? Looks like someone has been haxing again.

Quote
EDIT: Just to be clear, the "mood" weapons do exist- I've gotten them from exotic weaponsmithing.

Really? So you are saying that we have not tossed one of the huge modifications of this fortress? Huh. Imagine that.



 
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katana

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2689 on: October 25, 2012, 07:02:33 pm »


Quote
I had some marksdwarf recruits at a new, further away fortification, so they found the ambush first.

Without training them first? I will have to assume you wanted them to die, and are simply disappointing that the void walkers where unable to accomplish that.
Fortification. Almost every enemy up to then had been melee. When lore states that a civ is feared for their ranged weapons, you sorta expect them to have elite archers...

Putting ten (Being a standard squad amount) marksdwarfs at even adept level in a decent formation with silver bolts against anything from a dragon, to an exiled rift warden, to a bronze collusus. Go ahead and try it out in arena.

Quote
he whole fireball thing was a result of me being used to creatures ignoring fire when considering pathing. (which is the way it's been since fire was added until recently) I never officially knew of the change until now, and it isn't very well documented on the wiki

Did you prefer it when they got themselves burned?
When did I say that?

Quote
What am I meant to look for in the raws? I'm pretty sure that there are no tags that determine if a weapon is moodable or not

Exactly. So why wouldn't it be moodable?....
Because something in the game broke for one reason or another.

Quote
It might turn out that these mood weapons are weighted to be less likely or something, but I've gone 11 weaponsmith tries (3x different dwarves) without anything.

Oh, so that must mean it is impossible. Put away your vanadium katana, guys! This guy says it is impossible!
How old is that screenshot? I've gotten random mooded weapons in other versions. I don't like my current theory either, but from what I'm doing, it seems to be correct. Or I broke something else somehow.

Quote
I think voidwalkers should get higher natural skills, especially dodge or shield user. Their only real advantage over dwarves appears to be equipment and size. In my opinion, one should be at least an even match for an elite (between great and legendary +0 in weapon skill) dwarf. My melee dwarves also destroy them...

How many viodwalker sieges have you gone threw? It is a well balanced game, and it isn't like that will stop a hail of crossbows couldn't stop them. Your melee dwarves also destroy them, but in theory they are in admintine armor (Considering you know, the whole "Your a cheap hacker" and "you have admantine elsewhere"0
They're armored in a mix of bronze, steel, damascus steel.

Quote
I now have 4 artifact weapons:
Adamantine longsword
Adamantine longsword
Adamantine gladius
Low-grade mithril battle axe
(and an  enormous rat bone corkscrew)
All of which I can create normally.

Three admantine weapons? Looks like someone has been haxing again.

Dwarves pick the highest value metal unless they have a preference for something else. Are you seriously claiming that by having 3 wafers of adamantine, I'm cheating?

Quote
EDIT: Just to be clear, the "mood" weapons do exist- I've gotten them from exotic weaponsmithing.

Really? So you are saying that we have not tossed one of the huge modifications of this fortress? Huh. Imagine that.
When these things happen, most (logical) people would question if the mod was installed properly, and ask the complainer to check. If the weapons didn't exist then I would've screwed up something in installation somehow, and it wouldn't be an issue with the mod/dwarf fortress.


Not sure if trolling, or...
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(Tldr: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FRIENDLY FIRE SALT)

Stirk

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2690 on: October 25, 2012, 07:14:04 pm »

Quote
Fortification. Almost every enemy up to then had been melee. When lore states that a civ is feared for their ranged weapons, you sorta expect them to have elite archers...

They have what are basically guns, and are usually able to kill weak marksdwarfs in mas. Once again, your basing things off of ignorance. Have you even had a siege yet?

Quote
When did I say that?

You play dwarf fortress, so it is assumed.

Quote
Because something in the game broke for one reason or another.

Which of course happens randomly and all the time. Lines of code run out of breaker fluid or something?

Quote
How old is that screenshot? I've gotten random mooded weapons in other versions. I don't like my current theory either, but from what I'm doing, it seems to be correct. Or I broke something else somehow.

11 tests don't prove a theory, they barley make an argument.

Quote
They're armored in a mix of bronze, steel, damascus steel.

....So you DO want them to die. Why not something better? You apparently have a lot of void walker weapons lying around, why not smelt them down and make some nice armor?

Quote
Dwarves pick the highest value metal unless they have a preference for something else. Are you seriously claiming that by having 3 wafers of adamantine, I'm cheating?

Yep. Especially if your going around using BRONZE for the majority of your troops. I don't think I have ever used bronze, how did you even use that?

Quote
When these things happen, most (logical) people would question if the mod was installed properly, and ask the complainer to check. If the weapons didn't exist then I would've screwed up something in installation somehow, and it wouldn't be an issue with the mod/dwarf fortress.

With the difficult "copy" and "Paste" options that always haunt logical people.
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katana

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2691 on: October 25, 2012, 07:21:06 pm »

I give up.

And for the record- when your code randomly generates something and then bases things off of that, you sometimes forget to check if certain values will screw other things up. How many random variables are there in dwarf fortress? Can you even name them? Now imagine if one of those threw off everything. I've missed this when making less complex things before...
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Putnam

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2692 on: October 25, 2012, 07:41:37 pm »

Note that dwarves need a preference for an exotic weapon to create them with moods.

katana

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2693 on: October 25, 2012, 07:43:48 pm »

Note that dwarves need a preference for an exotic weapon to create them with moods.
There we go.

Now to find which of my novice weaponsmith army actually has preferences for the cool weapons.
EDIT: Bad RNG! Bad! :c
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 07:45:59 pm by katana »
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(Tldr: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FRIENDLY FIRE SALT)

Stirk

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2694 on: October 25, 2012, 07:48:13 pm »

Quote
I give up.

So by the laws of the internet, I WIN!

Wait. You didn't give up. You keep writing...

Quote
d for the record- when your code randomly generates something and then bases things off of that, you sometimes forget to check if certain values will screw other things up.

What value effects strange moods like that?

Quote
How many random variables are there in dwarf fortress?

My sources say "OVER 9000!!!!!11! >:( >:(!"

Quote
Can you even name them?

Of course. UristMcbob. UristMcjohn. UristMcain. Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Quote
Now imagine if one of those threw off everythin

Well considering that this has NOTHING TO DO WITH VARIABLES, I would be really, really surprised.
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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2695 on: October 25, 2012, 07:55:24 pm »

11 tests don't prove a theory, they barley make an argument.

11 trials, all with the same result, can be sufficient to cast serious doubt on a hypothesis.  Depending on the hypothesis.

Example: an experiment is conducted in which a coin is flipped, resulting in heads or tails.  Our hypothesis is that the coin is "fair" (50% chance of each outcome).  If we get 11 heads in a row, we've got statistically strong evidence against our hypothesis.  (The odds of 11 heads in a row if the coin is fair are 1 in 2048, or 0.049%.)

Quote from: katana
If I have a 20% chance of getting a regular weapon, and I roll this 9 times in a row, I have a feeling something's not working properly.

Your hypothesis was that you had an 80% chance of a "special" weapon, and you got 11 failures in 11 trials.  The odds of an 80% event failing 11 times in a row are 1 in 48,828,125.  You've pretty much proved that your original hypothesis was incorrect.
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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2696 on: October 25, 2012, 09:22:26 pm »

Here's another possibility - what if exotic weapons and weapons are not in the same category, and when the mood starts it is already decided if you will be getting an exotic weapon OR a normal one?

If that's the case, you can scum your moody dwarf's creation as often as you like, you'll have 0% chance of seeing one of those exotics from it.

This mod is heralded to be incredibly different.  Quotes from the first post:  "Countless hidden features and easter eggs which, individually, will not affect gameplay 99 out of 100 times, but are there to be discovered.  No playthrough will be the same!"  and "When you get a weaponsmith in a strange mood with my mod (or in the unlockable "weapons concept laboratory"), you have no idea what you're going to get.  Maybe you'll get a boring old sword or axe, or maybe you'll get "Blacktemples, a mithril khopesh," or "Hauntedrazor, a damascus steel pair of bladed chains."  Legendary weapons should be legendary.  Your civilization will be known forever for the weapon it creates, which will truly be one-of-a-kind. "

How rare does something have to be, for our (usually very accurate and honest) Narhiril to state that such things "will truly be one-of-a-kind"?  I say, very rare indeed.  Play/playtest all you want Sir; our modder has promised us a game which will never play the same twice.... and for that matter, this has so far proven true for you too, has it not?

This is, in my opinion, the VERY greatest of the Easter Egg mods (and the very greatest of all other mod categories, but I've more proof to support the Easter Egg category than the others).

Another detail I'd like to comment on, you mentioned running into some disappointing voidwalkers.

I've met some wimpy voidwalkers too.  And plenty that were not.  Usually intermixed within the same game.  There's nothing to say that this one playthrough you are doing now might even have a civilization of voidwalkers who are almost all wimps - that certainly would be a unique happening that I know of.  Then again, voidwalkers have their own type of very special projectile weapon, and impressive aim at a distance, even through fortifications...  Maybe your game just needs a little more time for them dice to keep rolling.

I expect that THIS mod is going to be very hard for you to accurately define the odds on.  It's designed to be very variable; not just across one game but across many games.  I suspect some of the random stuff gets decided during world generation, and that there are scads of surprises that absolutely cannot possibly happen in any specific game that is already being played, because the variables that allow for them have already been selected against - that's one very nice way to guarantee that no playthrough will -ever- be the same, after all.

So keep writing of your adventures, and your satisfied or frustrated desires to delimitate and define what you see happening and what you think that means for every other playthrough too - I'd only advise that you perhaps phrase your findings either within the framework of a truly impressive pile of varied experiments that test what you believe you see, or that you speak of them as 'this is what's happening in my game', without adding in 'thus it's what happens in this mod for everyone'.  That's likely to keep those of us with teeth and troll-thirst benign, if not benevolent, as we consider your words and decide how to answer you.
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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2697 on: October 25, 2012, 09:38:32 pm »

Here's another possibility - what if exotic weapons and weapons are not in the same category, and when the mood starts it is already decided if you will be getting an exotic weapon OR a normal one?

As a modder, I can tell you that that is not the case. It is exactly as I said. They make an exotic weapon if they have a preference for it. If they don't, you don't get one.

However, this exact fact is what makes LFR so wonderful--it's a rare event. Nearly everything in LFR is a rare event. It's just that there's a large enough amount that at least one will happen in your fort's lifetime, if it lasts a while.

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2698 on: October 25, 2012, 09:40:49 pm »

Quote
Here's another possibility - what if exotic weapons and weapons are not in the same category, and when the mood starts it is already decided if you will be getting an exotic weapon OR a normal one?

Looking into the raws, that is false. They are in the same category, and I don't even know if it is possible to get another category. The simplest way to find something out isn't to test it, it is to go into what creates it and see what it says.
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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2699 on: October 25, 2012, 09:41:56 pm »

Quote
Here's another possibility - what if exotic weapons and weapons are not in the same category, and when the mood starts it is already decided if you will be getting an exotic weapon OR a normal one?

Looking into the raws, that is false. They are in the same category, and I don't even know if it is possible to get another category. The simplest way to find something out isn't to test it, it is to go into what creates it and see what it says.

Exotic weapons aren't something you can mod with the raws, since they're defined as "weapons that are not defined as makeable in the entity raw".
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