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Poll

What would you most like to see next from LFR?

More tech tree!
- 36 (26.1%)
More ritual tree!
- 8 (5.8%)
More lore!
- 12 (8.7%)
More mythical weapons/armor!
- 22 (15.9%)
Plagues!
- 28 (20.3%)
More secrets!
- 21 (15.2%)
More mechanical constructs!
- 11 (8%)

Total Members Voted: 137


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Author Topic: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.21a *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]  (Read 406216 times)

Hurize

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2595 on: August 11, 2012, 09:20:03 pm »

Iron is harder than bronze, and bloodforged is statistically almost identical to iron (though a bit heavier).  You shot it in its most vulnerable location with a superior material, broke the control module, and it stopped functioning.  Spiders are fairly small and their armor isn't any thicker than plate mail, which iron or bloodforged arrows go through pretty easily.  The only odd thing I see here is that your spider was wearing a plate skirt, but I don't judge.

It's also worth noting that projectiles seem to follow their own (often nonsensical) set of rules, where bone can sometimes penetrate steel, and a fluffy wambler can behead a bronze colossus.  I don't know why this happens or even if it's supposed to, but its a behavior present in vanilla DF as well.


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The amount of malice in this thread is actually causing me some concern. I mean, chaining up mothers and forcing them to breed, just so we can drown their children to harvest their organs? Does this strike no one else as absolutely horrific?
You misspelled 'hilarious'

ciadude2

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2596 on: August 12, 2012, 01:54:32 pm »

Well that's certainly sig worthy lolol.
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narhiril

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2597 on: August 12, 2012, 10:30:52 pm »

Updated the poll, as I'm getting pretty close to finishing up the writing of all the new reactions and interactions.

Putnam

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2598 on: August 13, 2012, 07:27:41 pm »

A metal anything should naturally deflect arrows

Just Sayin

No, and there's no way to make it naturally deflect arrows unless you literally make it stronger than adamantine.

It's made of bronze.

narhiril

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2599 on: August 14, 2012, 12:15:12 am »

Now, the perplexing conundrum...  I've got the new dwarven constructs working, and they CAN be penned/pastured, but my dilemma is this...

The "construction" reaction works by imparting a syndrome to the worker, which grants them the temporary ability to transform one slimer into a dwarven mantis construct.  It works just fine on paper, but there are a couple of minor technical hangups.  Notably, here are the options I am looking at...




For the SYNDROME...



OPTION ONE:  Gas cloud - inhaled syndrome with ability applied to laborer.


Advantages

-Syndrome applied instantly, mantis constructed without any delay or micromanagement.
-It works...  sometimes.
-"Conflict of allegiance" issue (discussed below) can be partially circumvented with short-range targeting and pen/pasture designations.


Disadvantages

-Multiple dwarves in proximity could result in multiple mantis constructs from a single reaction (exploit).
-It works...  sometimes.  But sometimes, it doesn't, and resources go down the toilet.

-----
OPTION TWO: Produces a "tonic" (alcohol) that grants the ability when imbibed.


Advantages

-Syndrome applied as soon as tonic is imbibed.
-Always succeeds in applying syndrome - practically no risk of resource loss.
-Effectively limits the reaction to one and only one product, since dwarves cannot drink the same dose at the same time.

Disadvantages
-Some possible (rare) weird behavior with preferences.
-Getting a dwarf to drink the tonic when you want him to may be very difficult.  Needs testing.
-Vulnerable to "conflict of allegiance" issue.



-----
OPTION THREE:  Gas cloud, apply transformation to the slimer directly.


ADVANTAGES:

-Circumvents any potential conflicts of allegiance (discussed below)
-Instant and localized transformation.

 

DISADVANTAGES:

-Unreliable - may waste resources, like option one.
-Exploitable - no way to assure one-to-one reaction/transform ratio.


-----

The "conflict of allegiance" issue I had mentioned is a byproduct of the limitations of the transformation interaction - put simply, when i do the transformation through an ability, I have no way of guaranteeing that the transformation will be applied to a FRIENDLY slimer and not a wild or merchant one (targeting tokens are not this advanced). 

Option three gets around this by only applying the transformation to slimers pastured on top of it (so unless you're dumb - or determined, I guess - and build your mechanized defense lab right smack in the middle of the road AND try to use it at the exact moment that traders bring slimers by, you're fine).  Option three, however, has a number of other glaring flaws that make me uneasy to go that route.

It is unfortunate that none of these options are without drawbacks, but I'm afraid that these issues come up sometimes when you're trying to bend a static system to create content it wasn't designed to support - or, in this case, specifically designed NOT to support.  This is, essentially, an elaborate workaround to not being able to use creatures in reactions.

What do you guys, specifically those of you who I didn't lose somewhere in that wall of text, think I should do?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 12:17:52 am by narhiril »
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Pan

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2600 on: August 14, 2012, 02:18:48 am »

What are the chances of success? Sometimes? Half the time? Most of the time? Cuz I've had this problem with emberlights, really, and I don't feel it's that big of a bug. Annoying, but everything has a chance of failing, you know?
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Man of Paper

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2601 on: August 14, 2012, 12:53:56 pm »

Yeah, I don't mind a chance of failure or undesired results. It makes a bit of sense, what with how dwarves are.
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Kbarbarossa

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2602 on: August 14, 2012, 03:55:56 pm »

 You could just have the slimer drop a special item when it's slaughtered that you use in the reaction I suppose. Unless you want still want it to be a direct transmutation.

 You could also maybe make an item called a "Mantis Kit" or something that's not consumed in the reaction, but very expensive to compensate for infinite use which would work well for option 3. I saw this used in MW DF.

 Just an idea, I don't know if it would work for you, but could you have a reaction that turns the Slimer into an item such as a "Bagged Slimer" or something along those lines which then creates an automatic reaction for the construct like the butcher and tanner work except in the same building. You could then use that in the reaction. Again though, this isn't a direct transmutation.

 For a direct transmutation is it possible to make a creature more vulnerable to a syndrome. Again I haven't done any modding, at least not yet, so I don't know if you can do that.

If you were to use your proposed solutions I would prefer the third.

In the end it's your mod so you can do with it what you will.
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narhiril

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2603 on: August 14, 2012, 05:36:14 pm »

Thanks for the feedback, guys.


Yeah, I don't mind a chance of failure or undesired results. It makes a bit of sense, what with how dwarves are.

What are the chances of success? Sometimes? Half the time? Most of the time? Cuz I've had this problem with emberlights, really, and I don't feel it's that big of a bug. Annoying, but everything has a chance of failing, you know?

It's the same as an emberlight transformation - just a boiling stone that the dwarf (or slimer, in option 3) has to inhale.  The success rate seems to be somewhere between 30 and 60% on average, which is something that is just inherent in how the syndrome transfer works.


 For a direct transmutation is it possible to make a creature more vulnerable to a syndrome. Again I haven't done any modding, at least not yet, so I don't know if you can do that.


I cut out the earlier suggestions from that quote for brevity's sake - I don't plan to use either of them right now, but I have made a note of them.  Regarding syndrome vulnerability...  it's something that has not been very well researched.  There is an attribute called "disease resistance," but I wasn't able to determine anything conclusive after playing around with this for a few hours - it didn't seem to affect the success rate that dramatically (though I had an admittedly small sample size).

After a few hours of thinking it over in the bathtub, I'm actually leaning towards option #1 here, and here's why:

Option #1's primary drawback is that it won't always succeed, but this drawback is shared with option three.  Option one does a good job of preventing undesired slimers to be targeted for transformations if you simply pasture your slimers right next to the workshop.  However, the strongest reason for why I am choosing this option is the existing layout of the workshop itself - which looks something like this:

10001
01110
00010
01110
10001

The numbers represent block tiles.  Since the work area is right smack in the middle, the only approach to the work area is from the entrance on the left, and the workshop's corner block tiles make placing it in the middle of a road impractical.  Because of this layout, it would be somewhat difficult to get slimers into the right position for an option #3 transformation without putting them in a very small pen, which causes its own problems when they reproduce and start killing each other.

Since there is always going to be a dwarf at the work location when the reaction completes, I'll be targeting him with the syndrome and using the syndrome interaction to transform a nearby slimer (within a few tiles, let's use three as an arbitrary number).  Regardless of how many slimers are around, the dwarf can only turn one of them into a mantis.

The only remaining opportunity for exploits is if a player were to jam a large number of dwarves into the space around the workshop, potentially hitting more than one of them with the syndrome.  What I like about this option is that this exploit forces dwarves on top of each other, where they can socialize, meaning that attempting to intentionally abuse this exploit often puts you at a greater risk for tantrum spirals down the line - which may or may not be a good enough reason not to do it, but is certainly worth considering if you want to abuse the system.

So basically, you'll want to pen your slimers in the area right next to the workshop, where the worker will pass when he completes the reaction.  I'll be sure to note this in the manual.

...And with that, all that remains is testing and balancing those damned ritual interactions, but don't get me started on that.

narhiril

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2604 on: August 16, 2012, 11:27:35 am »

Today I came to the realization that implementing the next few constructs in the list would not be remarkably difficult, and since I haven't yet fired up the test fortresses yet (waiting on graphics, which are almost done), I might as well take the opportunity to go ahead and add dwarven tarantulas and scarabs.  Research for unlocking better constructs will look very much like the research for weapon upgrades - upgrading your "tome" from apprentice level (required for mantises) up to journeyman (tarantulas) and master level (scarabs) and using that tome to create the necessary blueprints through the scientific library (called "schematics" to differentiate them from weapon blueprints).

Tarantulas will be large spider constructs that can be penned/pastured.  Scarabs will be even larger constructs with thicker armor that can be war trained.  I haven't yet decided if the two other constructs (hornets and scorpions) are going to make it into this update or not, but we'll see.  Golems definitely will not, since they're going to be a ritual tree crossover upgrade, and the ritual tree hasn't gotten that far just yet.

Interactions are all done, though.  Whew.

astianax

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2605 on: August 16, 2012, 09:17:34 pm »

narhiril, you seriously are the crazy goddess of interactions.
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Putnam

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2606 on: August 16, 2012, 11:52:28 pm »

Creature-making interactions, yeah >_>

narhiril

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2607 on: August 20, 2012, 11:10:07 am »

Well, class started this week for me, so I'm not sure what kind of timeframe I'm looking at for conclusion of testing.  I think I'll compile everything and upload it as a test file for anyone who is interested in helping out, but the official release, though in sight, isn't quite here yet.

The good news?  Tarantulas and scarabs are done.  I hadn't planned to including those this release, but I was on a roll with constructs, and I just kind of kept going after mantises.

Pan

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2608 on: August 21, 2012, 04:38:47 am »

Test file? Sounds like fun. I'll give it a try, but I cannot promise consistant results. School started yesterday for me, too. Got stuff to do now.
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Arkenor

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18e *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]
« Reply #2609 on: August 23, 2012, 07:50:14 am »

Hi there! I'm a few weeks into finally diving into Dwarf Fortress. I'm loving your mod so far, using it as the base for a terribly unwise mix of mods that seems just about stable now after repeatedly hitting it with a hammer.

I've been struggling with a little project of my own. It seems to me that bowyer is a bit of a wasted skill right now (especially given that it's moodable). They barely make anything in the vanilla game, as as soon as you get your hands on metal, you're unlikely to be making crossbows out of wood or bone any more, and they don't even make their own ammo (though I guess that stops you getting an artifact bolt, which would make me cry). Turns out that getting them to be responsible for the metal crossbows is beyond my paygrade right now. I can't even find the reactions that makes crossbows and bolts. Is it hardcoded or am I just failing at filesearching?

Anyway, I was thinking (and this is why it's vaguely relevant for me to have posted the previous paragraph here): As your mod has bowyer savants turning up who are bad at everything except bowyery, and also introduces a wide range of new crossbows, do you think it might be appropriate for the bowyers to rise up, and maybe take some of those new weapons (or their requisite research) under their jurisdiction? The weapon smiths and smelters have enough to do anyway!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 08:05:06 am by Arkenor »
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