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More tech tree!

36 (26.1%)

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12 (8.7%)

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Total Members Voted: 137

[vorpal+5]

I'm not super convinced by the interest of slabs of accreditation in fact. There is a lot produced, so it forces you to have alchemy workshops nearby the training dummies, which is not super logical (I would prefer to leave them in barracks e.g).

I understand that any reaction need to produce something though... So here is my proposed rework... And it would add money to the game, see

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=107791.0


Basically, you mint money to get coins. Coins are used for a lot of stuff: training dummies, do alchemical reactions, anything fancy should cost money, as you pay the dwarf to do his work. You would also do alchemical research by spending a lot of gold money.... and if you need gold, you can transmute stone to gold, so you can't be stuck here...

Slabs: alchemical workshop can produce one slab for xxx gold coins. A training dummy needs one slab to operate (plus some coins for the drill master) and produces... one slab. Basically you don't spam slabs as they are continuously produced.

A refinement of the system that I would prefer is that a training dummy costs 5 slabs and produce 4. So from time to time you have to buy new accreditations at the workshops, for a few coins, coins that you would mint with the gold bar you transmute!

Last point, I think that the transmutation of 10 stones to one bar of gold is too generous. I understand that the hidden cost here is that you have to haul 10 stones. Still, even taking that into account I think a cost of 15 stones would be more fit. Obviously this is my point of view on a cost balance, but I have played quite a lot this mod lately and you can really generate a lot of gold bars that are worth quite a lot too once re-manufactured... So I advocate the 15 stones cost.


Narhiril, I would really like you to see interest in my proposal of minting gold bars into gold coins and using this new dwarves money into a lot of new (or not new) reactions, as part of the cost. This would be a new dimension in DF... You could create shopkeepers, black market etc. that would sell stuff. This would also unstuck players from some dire situations. Say you really need one bar of soap or plaster. For a high price (because you want that to be a pricey solution) a shopkeeper would sell you one. Etc.

[Meph]

smakemupagus wrote a mod for my mod based on this system. He, and I am well, are still working on balancing it, but the main problem I see with this is that these "blackmarket" traders, merchants, tradehalls or however you want to call them, will trade with you at all time. Even if you have a fortress that is in constant lockdown since 10 years and besieged by everything. It makes normal caravans a lot less interesting and messes up the balancing quite badly.

[Pan]

Well, these technical difficulties are a shame. I rather like vorpal's idea...

[vorpal+5]

Game balance can be tough to achieve yes... or exploits difficult to prevent... But then, DF can already be hugely exploited and there are tons of loopholes, for people who want to abuse the game system. Should we condemn the idea based on that? I hope not

At the very least, I see a money system interesting on 2 out of 3 points anyway... The 3 points would be:

a) get rare resources because you are stuck. This is what you fear might be a problem. Ok, we can drop that
b) get a common resource you lack and is crippling you. Say you really need this bar of plaster to fix bones. I believe it is abnormal to lose precious dorfs just because of that. A money system would help, with shopkeepers.
c) have a lot of reactions, shops etc. work with money as input. I see no problem with that and it would add the dimension of 'Dwarves economy'.

So at worst, (b) and (c) seems interesting, and (a) can be touchy as it can lead to exploits.

[Jeoshua]

With Money:

Chief Medical Dwarf: "Urist McDwarf is injured?  Our finest defender? And we're out of supplies?  Quick, nurse! Send word to the magistrate that we need a resupply from the mountain homes as soon as possible! Our finest warrior's life depends upon it!  Drain the coffers, if you must!"

Without Money:

Chief Medical Dwarf:  "We lose more Dwarves that way"
Rakost "Doc" McDwarf pulls the lever
Magma ensues.

[vorpal+5]

Your humor makes me think of something. Reactions can produce random effects (LFR alchemy etc.). So for balance purpose, if there is a black market shop, you can very well not end up with what you ask! This would be the game balance thing we need indeed.

[Pan]

 Well, I always support good and well thought out ideas. But it's up to narhiril for the decision. And it remains to be seen if Narhiril will want to work past technical problems for good ideas.

 Finally got a second emberlight today. I picked a dwarf that had only one leg, and upon finishing the ritual, his leg was restored to him. So much win and story potential. Also, exploiting crippled dwarves.

[Jeoshua]

And expediency does not equal quality.

You can get things for any two of the following:

Cheap
Fast
Quality

You cannot have all three.  Spending money on goods means they'll either be slow or crappy.  So varying qualities of the goods ordered, sometimes verging on the abysmally bad (aka sourced from elves).  So the randomness need not be just the black market shops.  You might end up with half the order you asked for, or at half the quality.  Something like that.

[Pan]

I don't think quality is a factor that can be changed by anything other than the dwarf itself's skill.

[narhiril]

smakemupagus wrote a mod for my mod based on this system. He, and I am well, are still working on balancing it, but the main problem I see with this is that these "blackmarket" traders, merchants, tradehalls or however you want to call them, will trade with you at all time. Even if you have a fortress that is in constant lockdown since 10 years and besieged by everything. It makes normal caravans a lot less interesting and messes up the balancing quite badly.

I can actually think of a way around this.  Shops need to be "stocked" with "goods" before they can "sell" them, and "goods" can just be tools that need to be imported.  That way you can buy what you want from the shop, but you're limited in how many purchases you can make by how many stock items you import - similar to how mech parts caches are going to work.

I'm not super convinced by the interest of slabs of accreditation in fact. There is a lot produced, so it forces you to have alchemy workshops nearby the training dummies, which is not super logical (I would prefer to leave them in barracks e.g).

I understand that any reaction need to produce something though... So here is my proposed rework... And it would add money to the game, see

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=107791.0


Basically, you mint money to get coins. Coins are used for a lot of stuff: training dummies, do alchemical reactions, anything fancy should cost money, as you pay the dwarf to do his work. You would also do alchemical research by spending a lot of gold money.... and if you need gold, you can transmute stone to gold, so you can't be stuck here...

Slabs: alchemical workshop can produce one slab for xxx gold coins. A training dummy needs one slab to operate (plus some coins for the drill master) and produces... one slab. Basically you don't spam slabs as they are continuously produced.

A refinement of the system that I would prefer is that a training dummy costs 5 slabs and produce 4. So from time to time you have to buy new accreditations at the workshops, for a few coins, coins that you would mint with the gold bar you transmute!

Last point, I think that the transmutation of 10 stones to one bar of gold is too generous. I understand that the hidden cost here is that you have to haul 10 stones. Still, even taking that into account I think a cost of 15 stones would be more fit. Obviously this is my point of view on a cost balance, but I have played quite a lot this mod lately and you can really generate a lot of gold bars that are worth quite a lot too once re-manufactured... So I advocate the 15 stones cost.


Narhiril, I would really like you to see interest in my proposal of minting gold bars into gold coins and using this new dwarves money into a lot of new (or not new) reactions, as part of the cost. This would be a new dimension in DF... You could create shopkeepers, black market etc. that would sell stuff. This would also unstuck players from some dire situations. Say you really need one bar of soap or plaster. For a high price (because you want that to be a pricey solution) a shopkeeper would sell you one. Etc.

Here's the problem with training workshops - right now, they don't make the most sense (producing slabs to be destroyed at an alchemy lab or trash compactor), but they work beautifully, with absolutely no micromanagement once you get them set up.  Adding a token system for reagents forces you to constantly monitor your reserves not just of coins, but of the metal they are made from.  It doesn't sound like much, but it's one more thing to worry about, and I think it seems a little silly that in an attempt to make an epic last stand for the making or breaking of a fortress, a couple of soldiers would have to worry about paying for the obstacle course.  That would be a very human thing to do, but kind of takes away from it, in my opinion.

This doesn't mean that I reject your idea - not in the least.  I actually have been meaning to revise a few immersion aspects along the lines of training workshops.  I can very easily remove slabs of accreditation from the game entirely and replace them with harmless boiling stones for the same effect without any clutter.  I could then use your coin system as a base for the replacement for the "document alchemical research" reaction, where you would be paying your researcher to research new breakthroughs.  The only problem I can think of is that there really isn't anything I can convey to the researcher from this, so the "coins" would essentially just disappear and convey no additional benefit to the dwarf performing the research.

I do agree with your point about gold, however.  I can up the cost there in a snap - 15 sounds quite reasonable.

[Pan]

Unrelated but important - how goes the Shedim testing, and with it, the next version?

Woah, did not expect a ninja from narhiril...

[narhiril]

Unrelated but important - how goes the Shedim testing, and with it, the next version?

Woah, did not expect a ninja from narhiril...

The graphics work, and I fixed the bizarre tissue problem, so they're about as ready to go as they're going to be.

I'm currently trying to figure out the best way to package all of this up, so bear with me for a little while as I sort out which files need to go where and what documentation needs to be updated (mostly just the change log, I think).  I'll try to get an upload as fast as reasonably possible.

[narhiril]

Uploaded and updated original post.

Version 0.18a is out (unofficially known as the "lightning, mechs, interactions, and WTF IS THAT THING, OH GOD, IT'S SHOOTING AT ME" update).

Seeing as this is by far the largest update in LFR's history, a few little glitches may have slipped their way in.  As usual, please report any issues directly to me via PM or posting here.

Have fun!!!



That ah tel did some damage before he went down >.<


Also, happy 4/20 to anyone who is into that sort of thing.

[Pan]

I came. Anyone else?

[Jilladilla]

im using the pre-installed graphics pack, and looking through the raws i saw two files:
reaction_ritual-t3
reaction_ritual_t3


they contain mostly duplicate entries, except that reaction_ritual_t3 has the additions and changes you mentioned in the changelog, while reaction_ritual-t3 appears to be carried over from version .17a