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Total Members Voted: 137

[Pan]

Ether bars can be imported in my fortress. Might want to get that fixed. I believe it could have something to do with the smelter reaction.

[narhiril]

Ether bars can be imported in my fortress. Might want to get that fixed.

Interesting.  This seems to be a problem originating from the new reaction.  Apparently, dwarves will never melt down objects on their own (which is why they weren't carrying them in all previous versions), but this new reaction gives them a non-melting way to obtain them - even though it's functionally identical.

What I'm going to do here is replace the "melt ethereal spheres" reaction with a "prepare ethereal spheres" reaction, which will take one ethereal sphere and produce one ethereal sphere.  Regular ethereal spheres can be melted normally, while masterwork ones can be put through this reaction to create non-masterwork ones without causing a tantrum spiral. 

That way, if you're having problems with masterwork ethereal spheres, melt all of the regular ones and then put the masterwork ones through this reaction to make them lower quality (by deleting them and replacing them with another one - custom reactions that consume masterwork items do not cause tantrums) before melting them as well.  This reaction will no longer require fuel, but will still be found at the smelter.  Expect this change for 0.14b.

If you're impatient (like I would be), here are the reaction raws.

Spoiler: reaction_alchemy_narhiril.txt (click to show/hide)

(found near the bottom)

Replace the entry for REACTION:ETHER_SPHERE_MELT with the following...

[REACTION:ETHER_SPHERE_MELT]
[NAME:prepare ethereal spheres for melting]
[BUILDING:SMELTER:NONE]
[REAGENT:A:1:TOY:ITEM_TOY_ETHER:INORGANIC:ETHER_METAL]
[PRODUCT:100:1:TOY:ITEM_TOY_ETHER:INORGANIC:ETHER_METAL]
[SKILL:POTASH_MAKING]

[Pan]

What if the furnace operator is a high master, and processes the ethereal spheres to be masterwork as well? Keep preparing the prepared spheres till it's not masterwork? Cuz that works, sure. But it's a little weird. Might as well make a reaction called 'Process Ethereal Sphere' which takes 5 spheres and produces one bar.

[trees]

That would make getting ether bars a chore and you'd still be able to import them.

On a similar note, I've had a weird issue regarding ether (or I'm just not understanding something): I have never seen an ethereal sphere, not even from the banshee funeral reaction. I've only seen an "ethereal statue of a dwarf" a few times, which is unable to be melted or used in the reaction to produce bars of ether. This is probably me messing something up since I use your mod as a base for my own weird attempts at creating things, but I don't think I've ever messed with any items outside of weapons. It's happened to me both in the current version and in 13b, help would be appreciated.

[narhiril]

What if the furnace operator is a high master, and processes the ethereal spheres to be masterwork as well? Keep preparing the prepared spheres till it's not masterwork? Cuz that works, sure. But it's a little weird. Might as well make a reaction called 'Process Ethereal Sphere' which takes 5 spheres and produces one bar.

This won't solve the problem of dwarven caravans still being able to bring ethereal bars.  What I've done is made the reaction require an obscure skill.  Surely you have someone around who isn't a master potash maker?

[narhiril]

That would make getting ether bars a chore and you'd still be able to import them.

On a similar note, I've had a weird issue regarding ether (or I'm just not understanding something): I have never seen an ethereal sphere, not even from the banshee funeral reaction. I've only seen an "ethereal statue of a dwarf" a few times, which is unable to be melted or used in the reaction to produce bars of ether. This is probably me messing something up since I use your mod as a base for my own weird attempts at creating things, but I don't think I've ever messed with any items outside of weapons. It's happened to me both in the current version and in 13b, help would be appreciated.

Heh...  this is a hidden balance mechanic. Ethereal statues actually use a different material with the same value and properties (called ETHER_STONE instead of ETHER_METAL), except that it uses a stone template instead of a metal one, meaning you can't melt the statues.  This was intentional - melting the statue would be too easy.  I wanted you to have to risk some lives if you wanted the metal. 

They're not supposed to be importable.  They're supposed to be RARE products from alchemy.  Statistically, you can do just as well with voidshard (which can make armor, too).

Ether is tied for the third most effective metal in the game with voidshard (both behind adamantine and hadrine).  The idea here is that you cannot advance beyond damascus steel without taking some risks.  Ether requires luck, patience, and perhaps the sacrifice of some scientists.  Voidshard already has a (quite pissed off) owner.  Hadrine requires a lot of development and can only be used for two pieces of armor.  Adamantine carries the risk of annihilation.

[trees]

Er, yeah, the second part of my post was supposed to be a response to why Pan's solution wouldn't work.

I thought the Banshee funeral rite was supposed to produce ethereal spheres? I think I am probably just not understanding something, I'll read through the manual bit again.

[narhiril]

Er, yeah, the second part of my post was supposed to be a response to why Pan's solution wouldn't work.

I thought the Banshee funeral rite was supposed to produce ethereal spheres? I think I am probably just not understanding something, I'll read through the manual bit again.

I apologize, I acknowledge that this is a bit confusing.  The banshee funeral rite only produces statues.  They're quite nice for your legendary dining room, but they cannot in any way be converted to ether bars, even though they have the same material properties and name.  As silly as it sounds, this is primarily to prevent frustration - melting a statue does not give enough metal for a bar, and since it is unlikely that you will end up with a large number of ethereal statues, I wanted to make melting impossible so that no one accidentally destroyed their statue by mistakenly thinking it could be made into a weapon.

[trees]

Alright, thanks for the quick replies, heh. I understand now.

[Pan]

 Ethereal statues are from another reaction, the 'Perform Banshee Rite', which takes a ectoplasm residue and frees the spirit inside or whatever. The spirit, in return, gives you an expensive statue.

 Ethereal spheres are from the alchemical experiements in the alchemy labs. They are rare, and probably the reason you've never seen them.

What if the furnace operator is a high master, and processes the ethereal spheres to be masterwork as well? Keep preparing the prepared spheres till it's not masterwork? Cuz that works, sure. But it's a little weird. Might as well make a reaction called 'Process Ethereal Sphere' which takes 5 spheres and produces one bar.

This won't solve the problem of dwarven caravans still being able to bring ethereal bars.  What I've done is made the reaction require an obscure skill.  Surely you have someone around who isn't a master potash maker?

Oh... good point. Well, in case you weren't joking (you probably were), you should still try to make it make sense. Like, make it at an altar? Request the gods to help you process this sphere with a 'Flatterer' or 'Concentration' skill or something. Dorfs with these skills are rare.

Holy shit, with my internet speed, I've been ninja'd since I tried to reply to tree's first comment...

... And ninja'd again.

[narhiril]

Alright, thanks for the quick replies, heh. I understand now.

You raise a valid point, though - it is much more confusing that it needs to be.  It would probably be beneficial if I simply renamed it to "phantasmal."  I don't think this statue was ever mentioned by name in the documentation (I think I called it a "special reward," but I will double check), so that should be a very easy change to implement.

[narhiril]

Ethereal statues are from another reaction, the 'Perform Banshee Rite', which takes a ectoplasm residue and frees the spirit inside or whatever. The spirit, in return, gives you an expensive statue.

 Ethereal spheres are from the alchemical experiements in the alchemy labs. They are rare, and probably the reason you've never seen them.

What if the furnace operator is a high master, and processes the ethereal spheres to be masterwork as well? Keep preparing the prepared spheres till it's not masterwork? Cuz that works, sure. But it's a little weird. Might as well make a reaction called 'Process Ethereal Sphere' which takes 5 spheres and produces one bar.

This won't solve the problem of dwarven caravans still being able to bring ethereal bars.  What I've done is made the reaction require an obscure skill.  Surely you have someone around who isn't a master potash maker?

Oh... good point. Well, in case you weren't joking (you probably were), you should still try to make it make sense. Like, make it at an altar? Request the gods to help you process this sphere with a 'Flatterer' or 'Concentration' skill or something. Dorfs with these skills are rare.

Holy shit, with my internet speed, I've been ninja'd since I tried to reply to tree's first comment...

... And ninja'd again.

I chose potash maker because I wanted to eliminate the possibility for someone to abuse the reaction to train an obscure skill.  There's no quality modifier for potash, so there's no incentive to leave the reaction on repeat to get a better potash maker- as opposed to social skills, which help ever so slightly in terms of happiness and mayoral elections (and perhaps more in future updates of both DF and LFR).  You can put it on repeat, but who really needs a high master potash maker?

[TehNoob]

I think it'll cause confusion. I would be.

What about the processing reaction doing this?

Takes one 'ethereal sphere' and gives out a 'processed ethereal sphere'. The 'processed ethereal sphere goes and gets melted, and you can't set it on repeat cuz the reaction only takes an 'ethereal sphere', not a 'processed ethereal sphere'. (which are both completely different objects anyway. This means you won't be able to train your social skills like this.

[narhiril]

I think it'll cause confusion. I would be.

What about the processing reaction doing this?

Takes one 'ethereal sphere' and gives out a 'processed ethereal sphere'. The 'processed ethereal sphere goes and gets melted, and you can't set it on repeat cuz the reaction only takes an 'ethereal sphere', not a 'processed ethereal sphere'. (which are both completely different objects anyway. This means you won't be able to train your social skills like this.

It also means that if your little dude makes a masterwork processed ethereal sphere, you're SOL - which is the problem that this reaction was originally implemented to circumvent.  Previously, melting a masterwork ethereal sphere would cause tantrums in the alchemists that created them.  The reason that the reaction produces spheres at all (instead of bars directly) is to prevent the caravan from bringing them.  Everything would be fixed with a [CANNOT_IMPORT] token, which, unfortunately, does not exist.

This solution isn't perfect, but I like it a lot better than caravans carrying ether or alchemists losing their minds over the spheres.  Alchemists should lose their minds in other, more exciting ways.

Oh... good point. Well, in case you weren't joking (you probably were), you should still try to make it make sense. Like, make it at an altar? Request the gods to help you process this sphere with a 'Flatterer' or 'Concentration' skill or something. Dorfs with these skills are rare.

The labor is the only thing I'm still up in the air about.  I need a skill that provides no feasible benefit, but also makes sense.  Is MAGIC_NATURE still a valid labor token, or was that axed after 40d?

[TehNoob]

What are the chances of a unskilled dwarf producing a masterwork?

Anyway, your mod. Just don't forget to make it clear it's a potash maker task.