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More tech tree!

36 (26.1%)

More ritual tree!

8 (5.8%)

More lore!

12 (8.7%)

More mythical weapons/armor!

22 (15.9%)

Plagues!

28 (20.3%)

More secrets!

21 (15.2%)

More mechanical constructs!

11 (8%)

Total Members Voted: 137

[thatkid]

I've only been using this mod for about two days now, but it's pretty awesome. I just lost a kobold camp to a nephilim siege composed of lancers (the battle itself was a part of Bellum Contiger, the War of Lancers), and since I've only played adventurers so far (save for a single dwarf fortress that only lasted up to the third migrant wave before a misplanned mining operation caused the fortress to flood while I wasn't paying attention) I haven't gotten much of a chance to see all the features but it still has been really awesome.

One thing I have noticed though, is that the meowkin are about on par with nephilim and voidwalkers during the Worldgen. In fact, in the three worlds I've generated they actually have more megabeast kills than the other two races (not combined though). From looking at the lore files, it seems like the nephilim and voidwalkers are supposed to be fairly powerful, but the meowkin should probably be on par with humans/elves since they're just cat-people who are slightly unhinged.
I'm not sure how you'd go about it, because their size doesn't appear to be the issue, but perhaps it would be a good idea to tone them down a bit? Unless that sort of thing is intended.

[narhiril]

Downloading now.

By the way, what makes sabre tooth tigers so formidable? Cuz I don't think they can stand up to, say, an armored lizardman or goblin. Maybe mod those sabre teeth to be as strong as a weak sort of metal? (copper?)

They're quite large - much larger than dwarves or war dogs.  Actually, they're significantly larger than grizzly bears or damascus sentinels (but damascus sentinels still pound the stuffing out of them).

They're not tide-turningly powerful, but they're a significant upgrade to war dogs.  Against a group of 5-8 trogdolytes, a group of 3-4 sabre-toothed tigers would usually win without casualties, whereas an equivalent number of dogs would be slaughtered.  Against a copper-equipped (armor and weapon) goblin, the outcomes were less consistent one-on-one, with the one landing the first decisive hit usually winning.  Two tigers would just about always beat a goblin, though.  I distinctly remember seeing one tear a lung through a copper breastplate during testing.

These were the test results I got from playing around with (and ultimately settling on) their size.  The best way to get a feel for them, however, is to pull open the arena and try them out yourself.

I've only been using this mod for about two days now, but it's pretty awesome. I just lost a kobold camp to a nephilim siege composed of lancers (the battle itself was a part of Bellum Contiger, the War of Lancers), and since I've only played adventurers so far (save for a single dwarf fortress that only lasted up to the third migrant wave before a misplanned mining operation caused the fortress to flood while I wasn't paying attention) I haven't gotten much of a chance to see all the features but it still has been really awesome.

One thing I have noticed though, is that the meowkin are about on par with nephilim and voidwalkers during the Worldgen. In fact, in the three worlds I've generated they actually have more megabeast kills than the other two races (not combined though). From looking at the lore files, it seems like the nephilim and voidwalkers are supposed to be fairly powerful, but the meowkin should probably be on par with humans/elves since they're just cat-people who are slightly unhinged.
I'm not sure how you'd go about it, because their size doesn't appear to be the issue, but perhaps it would be a good idea to tone them down a bit? Unless that sort of thing is intended.

First of all, I'm glad you're enjoying it!

The problem you mentioned with meowkin was much more exaggerated in earlier versions.  It seems to be based more on population than size or strength.  I found that extending the childhood and shrinking the "litter" size of the meowkin brought their world gen domination down to the on-par level that they are now.  On the occasions that nephilim and voidwalkers are at war with them, however, I have noticed (albiet from a limited sample size) that the meowkin don't match up nearly as well as they do in megabeast-slaying.

There will likely be further tweaks to the effect of reducing their influence a little bit more in the future, but they're a lot better now than where they were when I started.  I appreciate the feedback, though, as it gives me information and perspectives that are difficult for me to get from testing.

In other news, I managed to inject the experimental weapons lab into an old save from a previous test build using zilpin's dfworldtinker, which means I don't have to start that fortress over, so I know what I'll be up to this weekend.

[Pan]

Two voidwalker thieves during two seperate events just put my entire, iron equipped militia of 6 in the hospital. One's dead, the other trapped in barracks. I think the story behind voidwalker thieves shouldn't be 'to keep an eye on us', and more of 'infiltrators'.

[Merijeek]

Loving the mod. Too bad about the Neph caravans.

Can anyone explain to me what to do with the accreditation certs?

-Joe

[thatkid]

Another thing I've noticed is that

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Greater Wrath Demons

keep showing up as dead on my unit screen, without my ever having seen them or breached the caverns. I'm not sure why this is, or if it's already been reported, but I just thought I'd give you a headsup that they're maybe burning alive in the magma layer or something somehow?

Also, how do you go about making your tech trees? I noticed today that Kobold Camp has an 'altar' building that doesn't actually do anything, and I've been considering adding a religion-based tech tree with various rituals for my own use (and I guess I'd probably throw it over towards the KC thread so anyone who wants it can grab it), but I don't even know where to begin.

[Patchouli]

I don't know the exact details of how it does it in this mod, but probably the two easiest ways are:
-Custom instruments/toys that are used as regents in a workshop.
-Custom materials that are used as regents in a workshop.

Toys and instruments can be dropped by monsters or churned out as a product in a reaction, which can then be used as a regent for a different reaction when you have five of them or something similar. Material reaction products/classes can be used to do the same thing.

[narhiril]

Another thing I've noticed is that

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Greater Wrath Demons

keep showing up as dead on my unit screen, without my ever having seen them or breached the caverns. I'm not sure why this is, or if it's already been reported, but I just thought I'd give you a headsup that they're maybe burning alive in the magma layer or something somehow?

Also, how do you go about making your tech trees? I noticed today that Kobold Camp has an 'altar' building that doesn't actually do anything, and I've been considering adding a religion-based tech tree with various rituals for my own use (and I guess I'd probably throw it over towards the KC thread so anyone who wants it can grab it), but I don't even know where to begin.

Yeah...  they're fighting other stuff down there.  While they're very strong, they don't hold out forever.  I don't know how to make them non-hostile to certain randomly-generated creatures that they're fighting with.  I wish they wouldn't show up in the units list because it hints at one (well, actually, quite a bit more than one) of LFR's biggest secrets, but it won't really affect anything because their population is functionally unlimited, so more will eventually show up even if some die.  Trust me, you'll know when you find one.

The tech tree is done, as Patchoulli says, by requiring custom items (generally tools and toys) for workshop constructions.  LFR uses a chain of these (which is getting increasingly complex) to create different "levels" of the tech tree.  These special items are obtained by...

1) Acquiring them from a creature drop (i.e. damascus sentinel)
2) Acquiring them from a rare creature drop (i.e. moroii)
3) Requiring a special material to produce (i.e. orichalcum)
4) Producing a chance product from a "research" reaction (i.e. documentation)

Loving the mod. Too bad about the Neph caravans.

Can anyone explain to me what to do with the accreditation certs?

-Joe

There is a reaction in the alchemy and magma alchemy labs called "document alchemical research" that takes ten of these slabs and produces one, functionally eradicating nine of them (the reason it does this is technical - reactions do not advance skills unless they produce a product of some sort).  This reaction will train the organizer skill and remove the clutter that inevitably builds up around training workshops, but is also a method for unlocking further technical advances, since this reaction has a number of uncommon "chance" products needed for tier two workshops.  For example, sometimes documentation will produce a "perplexing slab detailing the experimental synthesis of hadrine," which is needed to unlock the experimental materials workshop.  The occasional masterwork slabs being destroyed in this reaction will not cause negative thoughts in their creators (I have personally and extensively tested this).

It's also worth noting that these items have extremely long names, which WILL cause crashes if you are using the current version of TrueType, so it is highly recommended that you leave that off until it is fixed in future versions of DF.

In case you're having trouble reading the full names, or if changing the layout of the screen is irritating, they all start differently...

perplexing = experimental materials
detailed = lustrum extractor
carved blueprints = advanced casters
hastily chiseled = experimental weapons


carved treatise = currently no function, planned for future developments
inscribed = currently no function, planned for future developments

[thatkid]

Alright, cool. Thanks
I'm going to start by having the shaman (or whoever is given the task of working at the altar) make fetishes out of bone and wood. These fetishes will then be used to perform rituals which will have a small chance of creating other items which can be used for more advanced altars, which will in turn allow for more advanced mystical tools to be made and thus more advanced rituals which have the potential to reward the user with even cooler miracles.

[narhiril]

Alright, cool. Thanks
I'm going to start by having the shaman (or whoever is given the task of working at the altar) make fetishes out of bone and wood. These fetishes will then be used to perform rituals which will have a small chance of creating other items which can be used for more advanced altars, which will in turn allow for more advanced mystical tools to be made and thus more advanced rituals which have the potential to reward the user with even cooler miracles.

Wait until 0.31.26 - that's when the real "cooler miracles" begin

But yes, essentially you have the concept of how the "tech tree" works figured out. 

[Merijeek]

Actually, my question on the certificates was from the weapons and dodging training stations. Certs pile up, but how do they get used?

-Joe

[narhiril]

Actually, my question on the certificates was from the weapons and dodging training stations. Certs pile up, but how do they get used?

-Joe

Every training workshop produces slabs of accreditation from a successful training session.  The production of these slabs is what makes training reactions work - it doesn't matter what skill a reaction uses, a dwarf will not gain any skill points unless the reaction produces a product.  Skill gains are linked to the number of products: more products = more skill points.  I discovered this the hard way when I accidentally set the experimental materials workshop to produce 15000 hadrine strands instead of one hadrine strand with [PRODUCT_DIMENSION:15000] - the strand extractor went from dabbling to +5 legendary in an instant, and the frame rate dropped about 10fps until I dfautodestroy-ed all 15000 of them.  To be fair, it was very late and it was about my ninth test build that night.

So you will generate slabs of accreditation from the morgue, medical training dummy, mechanical sparring partner, and mechanical obstacle course every time they are used.  Naturally, these pile up quickly and can cause performance hits both on your workshops and your framerate if not disposed of, so the "document alchemical research" reaction at the alchemy lab is there to get rid of them, nine at a time (well, ten removed and then one added back to train organization). 

Unlike most other alchemy lab reactions, this reaction does not require the alchemy labor to be enabled, nor does it require fuel or have any risks associated with it.  Any idle dwarf on the lab's permitted workers list (which is everyone by default) will perform the labor.  If you are using a training workshop, you will probably want to build an alchemy lab nearby and set documentation to repeat.  This will get rid of the slabs and "research" (read: randomly produce) the items you need for tier two workshops.

Slabs of accreditation are only used at the alchemy lab (document alchemical research).  They have no other function.  You can safely export or atom-smash them if you have no desire to use them for that research reaction.  The reason they exist at all is because training workshops don't work without them, and they offered me a convenient way to stagger the tier two advances based on how much you utilize the tier one training workshops.

I hope I have answered your question.  If not, I'm afraid you'll need to rephrase it for me.  Glad you're enjoying it, though

Two voidwalker thieves during two seperate events just put my entire, iron equipped militia of 6 in the hospital. One's dead, the other trapped in barracks. I think the story behind voidwalker thieves shouldn't be 'to keep an eye on us', and more of 'infiltrators'.

I'll rename them next version

[Merijeek]

Right, got it. They do absolutely nothing but get created. I was thinking they had to get cashed in to produce XP or something.

-Joe

[narhiril]

Right, got it. They do absolutely nothing but get created. I was thinking they had to get cashed in to produce XP or something.

-Joe

Ah, I see what you meant.  Right, from a technical standpoint, it's the reaction that creates the slab that gives the experience and not the slab itself.  I could have made the training reactions produce a rock instead for the same result, but I liked the way the slabs fit into being re-used for documentation.  Plus, who doesn't have too many rocks lying around already?

[Dohon]

While I haven't played your mod yet due to time constraints, I did have a look at the mod documentation and this thread. My mind was boggled, then blown. The depth in the tech tree is just ... staggering. I'm deeply impressed and I'm looking forward to more of it!

[Pan]

So, narhiril, what are your plans (that you are OK with revealing) for the next release? Give some of us something to look forward to.