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More tech tree!

36 (26.1%)

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Total Members Voted: 137

[TehNoob]

Yeah, I guess your right. A smooth wooden surface is really the same as a smooth, stone one.

[TehNoob]

Anyway, the new updates are awesome. However, the plant transmutation reaction... well, it's not buggy if you don't set it to repeat. That's really a bit like saying 'it's not buggy if you don't use it'. I think, perhaps, you could do several reactions for the plant transmutation:

 'Conduct plant transmutation from 5 ___.'

'___' is a certain plant. (plump helmet, winding spire, sweet pod, shankweed etc)

 Now they won't take the just produced batch of 'vines of xanadu' to make shankweed.

It may be a bit of work for something small, but here's just a thought.

[narhiril]

Anyway, the new updates are awesome. However, the plant transmutation reaction... well, it's not buggy if you don't set it to repeat. That's really a bit like saying 'it's not buggy if you don't use it'. I think, perhaps, you could do several reactions for the plant transmutation:

 'Conduct plant transmutation from 5 ___.'

'___' is a certain plant. (plump helmet, winding spire, sweet pod, shankweed etc)

 Now they won't take the just produced batch of 'vines of xanadu' to make shankweed.

It may be a bit of work for something small, but here's just a thought.

This would require a very, very large number of reactions to account for at least most of the major flora in the game, but I do understand where you're coming from here.  It would be far better if the reaction could be safely set to repeat, and a revision of this reaction would not be something that would take a lot of time (it could conceivably be done almost immediately).  Here are some options I am looking into...

1) Making a small handful of reactions for a few common plants (plump helmet, shankweed, bluebell, mousebulb, dimple cup, wild strawberry, rat weed).  This would ensure that the more valuable products are not consumed in the reaction.

2) Changing the reaction to use logs instead of plants as reagents.  I am unsure about this option because I know from experience that the number of enemies and dangerous creatures in LFR makes woodcutting a much more dangerous and difficult job after the first few years.

3) Changing the reaction to use seeds instead of plants as reagents.  It would be wise to forbid some seeds as reserves in this case.  I am leaning towards this particular option, as it seems to make the most sense.


How do you feel about any of these?  Anyone else is free to chime in as well.

[Carn]

Actually, using seeds makes a lot of sense. After a fortress with a working farm runs for a while, it builds up a lot of seeds. In the past I've always just made roasts out of them, but your solution is elegant.

[SirAaronIII]

The logs could work as long ad the reaction doesn't take too many (I think 3-5 would be enough) using cavern trees, I'd say.

[astianax]

i like the seeds idea, for pretty much the reason carn gave. i immediately start up a farm in every fort with diamond buds (a plant made by the random plant generator, grows underground, the buds are worth 40,  cognac from it is worth 80...so, the dwarves immediately get nice, expensive booze...) and just the one farm plot leaves me with hundreds of seeds in what seems like no time...

and, as for the cloth for stone beds, there's another mod that did that. i honestly don't remember which one, atm, unfortunately. i do know that my modified silkworms helped a lot on that, making actual silkworm farming doable. but, if you don't use something like those, cloth can be a bit of a pain, if one doesn't set up a pig tail farm plot or the like. i guess it all depends on how people feel for extra work

[Pan]

Well... a stone bed, you know? Doesn't strike me as comfy.

Although it's made with advanced mechanics... oh well, whatever.

[narhiril]

Well... a stone bed, you know? Doesn't strike me as comfy.

Although it's made with advanced mechanics... oh well, whatever.

I'm not seeing how a purely wooden bed is any more comfortable.  I was under the impression that the material of the bed was only referring to the frame, and that bedding material was not required simply for simplicity's sake (just as traction benches do not reflect the secondary materials used in their construction).  Is sleeping on a hardwood floor any different than sleeping on a stone one? 

My point is that, logically, yes, you're entirely right, beds should require cloth or some sort of bedding, but at the same time, I cannot go in and modify the existing hard-coded reaction that produces beds from a single log.  I could very easily make the stone beds require cloth, but I think - and correct me if you think differently - that this would just make the default wooden beds look that much more absurd.  I feel that by forcing this inconsistency with the default reaction, I would be detracting from the game more than adding to it.  In this case, I think simplicity and consistency are more beneficial than accuracy.  You are free to try and convince me otherwise - I have been convinced to see things from another perspective in the past.  I do, however, feel that the community for this mod, especially long-term supporters and posters such as yourself, are entitled at least to a better explanation than "because that's what I think."  If you find yourself saying "oh whatever," it means that either something isn't clear or that I'm doing something without a good reason, both of which are issues that need to be rectified.

Since this is slightly more advanced cutting than simply using a saw, I made the machine shop a tier one mechanical building, which can also construct bins out of stone by cutting pieces that interlock into a box.  Since the cutting mechanisms are going to require precision tools, advanced mechanisms, and metal (drive) chains, it is still going to be easier to make beds and bins out of wood if it is available. 

I am a bit concerned however, that the availability of stone would essentially make wood obsolete once the workshop is built, which is not something I want to do.  To balance this out, I wanted to make this workshop require power, but that would require one of two things...

1) A token which is planned, but does not currently exist.

2) Fuel.  Which means I will need to make a magma version as well.

---

So I guess here are the options...

1) Continue with the Machine Shop as is and do not require any reagents other than input stone.

2) Force the Machine Shop to use fuel, and make a magma-powered version as well.

3) Scrap the idea until the ability to require power for buildings is made public.

4) Make it a hybrid building, dipping into the ritual tree to explain the power source.


I am open to any of these possibilities, but numbers 2 and 4 seem to be the ones that I am most inclined to use.  I'd like to try to strike as elegant a balance as possible, and for that, I may need to look at the same information from a different angle.  Any feedback, comments, or concerns are most welcome. 

[Carn]

Well, if you require fuel for stone beds it gives little reason to make them, since most fuel in my experience comes from logs. If you manage to embark on a site littered with coal and no trees that might make them more appealing, since you can't make coal beds. In any other situation though, it would be far easier to simply make wooden beds. If there was a way to make the reaction require less than one log of fuel, that might work, but I don't think that is an option. Perhaps simply making the wood burner produce two charcoal for every log would alleviate this and fuel requirements in general, but I'm not sure that is an option. Lustrum is FANTASTIC, but fairly rare and since trade caravans still don't bring wagons, can only be bought in small quantities. It does its job as a good stopgap between early game when foresting is relatively safe and later when you find magma though. It is fantastic, just wouldn't help get stone beds out for angry floor sleeping dwarves early.

Also, not every embark is drowning in stone. Only when you embark in mountains / high elevation do you get those 100+ z levels of nothing but rock. I like lower elevations because they tend to be flat on the surface and more interesting (deadly) environments, like salt oceans, glaciers, swamps, and deserts. Aquifers can also make rock harder to acquire. Every embark is different. In theory, if you embarked on the most lush forest imaginable, you might even make wood crafts! I never have, because wood is so crucial for fuel and beds and bins and the like, but hey...


Anyway, having the machine shop require tech advancement as you already planned might be all you need to balance stone beds out. Making wood beds would still be more simple and certainly faster early, and that is when harvesting lumber outside is least dangerous (before ambushes and sieges start).

I'm going to be honest, even if stone beds do not require fuel, I will always be requesting wood from caravans, and buying every log I can, as well as clearcutting every tree I find. The amount of wood a fortress needs to run is *insane* if you want to actually use alchemy, melt down metal ore/scrap from invaders, and make metal crafts/weapons/armor. Anything that adds more reliance on fuel would need some significant bonus to be worth adding to that strain. Requiring fuel would eat a log anyway, so it's strictly slower AND less efficient than simply making a wooden bed. Even in a no-tree environment it wouldn't make sense to do this, since you're most likely using trees for fuel. In my experience the game is already irritating to play without starting with magma on the surface. Jobs that require fuel simply do not get accomplished without magma at any reasonable rate, and having more workers assigned to them does not help unless there are infinite trees with no danger to the woodcutters.

I suppose that was a wall of text.

tldr - I see no problem with beds made of rock as a tech advancement

[Pan]

Narhiril, stick with your original plan. I was merely continuing the subject on cloth on beds for argument's sake, since I was curious on your thoughts on how that works. (That reminds me: on the subject on how things work in your mod, you still haven't told me how orichalcum works. What is that stuff?  )

After all, in DF, how does the engraver chip rock walls with no tools? Or the fishermen with no net or pole? Or the smith with no hammer?

In any case, dwarves sleeping on rock and wood beds with no cloth isn't the most 'unrealistic' thing out there. 

[narhiril]

@ Carn - There is an option for "partial" fuel requirement - simply giving the reaction a 50% chance to give the fuel back, for instance.


@ Pan - Orichalcum is a base metal that is not known for its hardness, but it exhibits shape memory - when bent or reformed into a new shape and then heated, it returns to the shape in which it was forged with an alarming amount of force.  This effect can be used to create motors, tools, and seals well beyond the capabilities of most other metals.  Orichalcum tools use this force to mold mechanisms of sizes and dimensions identical to a degree of precision not previously known to the dwarves.  Orichalcum precision tools can also be used to produce other tools of different metals using this potential for accuracy.  This is based on the presumption that a casting mold made of orichalcum would actually grow stronger at the high temperatures of casting, as higher temperature would make the mold more and more resistant to deformation (up until the point of melting, which is very high for orichalcum).

Shape memory is an actual phenomenon, but, orichalcum being a fictional metal, the durability of the metal and strength of the shape memory effect has been exaggerated for artistic purposes.  Real shape-memory alloys are more frequently used in precision medicine, a technique originally pioneered by NASA.

[narhiril]

In other news, LFR's pre-packaged version *might* soon be using a modified executable that fixes the bug that prevents the manufacturing of crystal glass.  I'm just trying to get the permissions all squared away.

[TehNoob]

An executable? Will it work on Macs?

[Carn]

Maybe it's just me, but I am of the opinion that all fuel consuming jobs should consume less fuel, and there should be less of them. Running out of fuel isn't a lot of fun. When your fuel is also the only thing you can make beds out of, that furthers the fun reduction. It is a slippery slope.

Stone beds would be a thing of beauty!

[narhiril]

An executable? Will it work on Macs?

Does LFR currently run on Macs?  I honestly know next to nothing about running DF (or just about anything else) on Macs. 

If you're using the raw-only release, it isn't going to change anything - the df.exe file is only included with the pre-installed version, and this is the only one that would be updated with this feature.

Maybe it's just me, but I am of the opinion that all fuel consuming jobs should consume less fuel, and there should be less of them. Running out of fuel isn't a lot of fun. When your fuel is also the only thing you can make beds out of, that furthers the fun reduction. It is a slippery slope.

Stone beds would be a thing of beauty!

I'm going to push it through without fuel for now and see how it works.  I can always revise it later if it axes (lol "axes") wood's role from the game too much.