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Total Members Voted: 137

[narhiril]

In response to the image, the voidwalkers weren't exactly riding them. The pigeons just sat at the edge of the map when I opened the ballista salvo corridor to let the voidwalkers in. It was a slaughter, and I only had a broken swordsdwarf nose to show for it.

(failed) test of the voidwalkers' new "homing pigeon defense array."

...

You have a very active imaginary life, narhiril. 

But to make the voidwalkers even harder - maybe their sieges could be done in stealth? That would up the difficulty a lot. The reason I can kill voidwalkers all the time is that they need to path through lots of marksdwarves, and that's because I can see they have no energy projecting voidwalkers in their ranks. If their sieges are stealthed, it would significantly up the difficulty, since I would hesitate to send marksdwarves to their doom. (It's their cloaking technology)

I always sort of imagine voidwalkers sort of like the Protoss. It's the flash of yellow when they die that does it. (protoss zealots teleport away in a flash when they are heavily injured - 0 hit points.) Also, your graphical representation of them are all grey, no mouths, and shining eyes.

Who said it was imaginary?  I have a HPDA prototype in my basement... 

...That's actually one of the few things I don't have a prototype of in my basement, but that's another story.

I'm not sure if it's possible to make their sieges stealth - I have never put an AMBUSHPREDATOR token on an entity race before, and I have no idea how they would react to it.  It's something I'd like to test at some point, even if it doesn't make it into the voidwalker raws (this would require a lot of testing).

[Pan]

I thought the elves were stealth siegers?

[Carn]

There was a mod in 40d that had sand people who did everything from stealth, including sieges - same one that had golems available for embark (just strong creatures that couldn't breed, basically)

I can't for the life of me remember it's name now, but it was pretty good.

[Carn]

Just wondering if anyone else has been playing the second witcher game, and gotten to the siege of the dwarf fortress....

Human defender: "The enemy will overwhelm us!"

Dwarf: "Bloody hell they will, this is a DWARVEN fortress!"

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And then you flood the entrance with lava.

 It's so beautiful. I shed a tear.

You just single-handedly sold the game to me.  I've had The Witcher on my steam account for about a year, but haven't gotten around to playing it and didn't have it as a high priority.  It's now next on my list.

That's from the second witcher game, which is basically everyone good about the first one but better. Also, everything that wasn't great, is now great. Seriously, it's in the patch notes.

The first witcher is pretty good, but the second is leagues beyond the first. Still, first is worth buying.

[Pan]

There was a mod in 40d that had sand people who did everything from stealth, including sieges - same one that had golems available for embark (just strong creatures that couldn't breed, basically)

I can't for the life of me remember it's name now, but it was pretty good.

It was Civilization Forge. I was actually going to mention them, but I was afraid Narhiril may be unfamiliar, so instead I mentioned the elves. The sand people were like humans, but sieged like elves.

[narhiril]

I thought the elves were stealth siegers?

I'm not entirely clear on the functionality of the [AMBUSHER] token - does it just cause ambushes or does it also cause sieges to be stealthy?

[Pan]

Some people on the modding forums ought to know.

[Carn]

There was a mod in 40d that had sand people who did everything from stealth, including sieges - same one that had golems available for embark (just strong creatures that couldn't breed, basically)

I can't for the life of me remember it's name now, but it was pretty good.

It was Civilization Forge. I was actually going to mention them, but I was afraid Narhiril may be unfamiliar, so instead I mentioned the elves. The sand people were like humans, but sieged like elves.

YES, thank you, that's right. I remember thinking it had some cool features. I liked the rare elemental crystals that could be woven into iron to make different metals for different purposes, earth for heavy armor, fire for flaming weapons, storm for powerful bolts, etc - or all together for elementium, a really powerful metal. I think it actually had a bit TOO many civilizations, it could get really cluttered with all the trade wagons and sieges and ambushes. Still, the alternative smithing options and golems were cool.

Nar has pretty much already done alternative metal options, and they are cool and better balanced with risk vs reward, I think. With the new legendary bone and leather options, that will carry risk vs reward into a new category, giving more alternatives for badass dwarf equipment. Also....leviathan skull thrones. I can dream.

I do have to admit that I've modded sabretooth tigers to be embark purchaseable though - they're expensive enough I don't feel it's overpowered, and they are by no means invulnerable. It's the only real option for embarking in hostile areas for early defense at the moment. They also don't seem to reproduce all that quickly. Even if gear and training for a couple of combat dwarves on embark was cost effective it would mean less dwarves to set up critical early industry and less time to do so, because you'd be bringing less supplies. The catch here being that some of the more hostile environments are also difficult to set up shop in due to extra work being needed to get water and agriculture going, and hunting and fishing being difficult if not impossible.

Still - Nar, you did say you had some kind of early defense option in mind after the update, that what you wanted to do with golems (or whatever) wasn't possible just now?

I only mention this because as it stands, the modded sabretooth fill a gap that could be taken up by more disposable embark options (something that wouldn't continue to add to the power and wealth of a fort by breeding) which would then leave sabres open as an upgrade to them (perhaps not individually, but with the ability to breed). Actually, having an early embark defense option with a short life span would further encourage this - it could buy valuable protection and therefore time, but it wouldn't be around for too long. Useful, but only as a stopgap towards another goal, or to supplement defenses if you can afford to have a caravan bring more. If they were heavy, that would significantly put stress on your trade as well (couldn't bring other needed supplies in bulk).

my $0.02

I do so wish the game had an option to force more undead areas. I'm not sure how it calculates a plague of undeath being present or not, I know the area has to be evil, but not all evil areas are plagued.

Anyway, this mod is great fun and continues to improve!

[Carn]

I just realized - if bone buildings really are a possibility, then undead areas could see the rise of some AMAZING forts, with all the skeletons around....

Not that living creatures don't have bones, but it seems more appropriate to have a necromantic looking fortress is the midst of haunted forsaken wastes where the dead do not rest easy.

[Pan]

Yes, it's the [AMBUSHER] tag in the entity file.

That gives them the ability to stealth siege.

I do have to admit that I've modded sabretooth tigers to be embark purchaseable though - they're expensive enough I don't feel it's overpowered, and they are by no means invulnerable. It's the only real option for embarking in hostile areas for early defense at the moment. They also don't seem to reproduce all that quickly. Even if gear and training for a couple of combat dwarves on embark was cost effective it would mean less dwarves to set up critical early industry and less time to do so, because you'd be bringing less supplies.

Aye, I'm guilty of making them embark purchasable. I mean, why not? It's easy to just make up a story on how the dwarves found and tamed the great beasts underground. And their very rare in caverns, so I decided to hell with that.

Hmm, just got a large goblin siege that is closely followed by a voidwalker annihilation force. The two large army is duking it out at the edges of the map, with 4 squads of gobs and 2 squads of trolls vs 3 squads of voidwalkers. This is going to be fun.

 EDIT: The voidwalkers have routed the goblins, but lost almost half of one squad to the goblin crossbow squad. They charged to my entrance, and two were seriously injured by the ballista salvo. My less than experienced archers whittled down another one. Then I noticed they were heading for an unsealed side door that I had made to retrieve the loot faster. 4 voidwalkers including a champion rushed through before the drawbridge sealed, crushing two others. The other voidwalkers then took the longer, intended path. There was panic in the barracks area, but the recently trained lasher squad managed to hold off the voidwalkers till the axe squad put them down. The lasher squad was, however, cut down to the last man.

Then the battle went as intended - the sabre tooth tiger bomb detonated on the voidwalkers and distracted them as the military cut em down. Then just as I ordered the civilian burrows turned off... a bog troll siege sounded. 4 squads mounted on giant toads. I still remember the last time they did that - quarry bush leaves + toad meat roasts for everyone again!

[Carn]

Pan, that sounds amazing. I can't wait to get to that point. I find I rarely keep a fort long enough to see that kind of action, though. Either I get rolled early by wandering monsters or an ambush (I like to embark in dangerous areas with handicaps like temperature, saltwater, what have you) Or more likely, I get bored and gen a new world because that last one wasn't *quite* what I was looking for. I do this a lot. I really wish I could just custom specify what I wanted for my embark. I don't even care about the rest of the world - it has no visible effect on fortress mode once you embark.

Maybe I should look into using quickfort to ease along the beginning of my forts, since I seem to spend the most time in the first year or two.

[Pan]

Yeah. Some tips on these large siege mods:

1. Animal bombs (cages in a room at the side of the corridor sealed with a drawbridge stuffed with tigers linked to a lever. I know, very long.) are very good against hardhitting voidwalkers. They attack the tigers instead of the dwarves, who really cannot afford to get hit by a *glistening voidshard whip*. Be prepared to request for tigers and even dogs every year for this. Tigers > dogs because they take more punishment, therefore reducing cleanup. And it's just the Rule of Cool. Also, don't put them all in one cage. Only one dwarf will be assigned the Cage Large Creature job. I count the war tigers I have, then divide them up in the cages so multiple dwarves will load up the cages. It's faster this way, since this is such a crucial tactic against voidwalkers. Without it, my dwarves fall to pieces against voidwalkers. (since I havent managed to equip everyone with voidshard yet, and also cuz I'm challenging myself not to mine addy.)

2. Sieges like mine drain FPS like crazy. Conserve FPS by atomsmashing stone and clothes. This map of mine is a 3*3. My usual FPS was at 50 ish. The siege was at 10, then 20 when the goblins routed, then 15 when the bog trolls showed up. Then it was at 30 when the dust cleared (all the clothes and miasma etc)

3. Do all your fighting inside instead of meeting them in an open field. The main reason isn't archers, but clean up. Seriously, that stuff drains FPS and you DONT want a hauler walking to the edge of the map to pick up voidwalker shoe. Avoid the caverns unless you really need it. In this fort, I avoided it and this is the fastest fort I've ever had. (although this being the first 3*3 embark, and all the atom smashed stone probably helped. Still, caverns are a drain.)

4. Mid game fatigue was something I suffer from. The fort looks ugly, the migrants suck, the clever designs you thought up to mangle goblins isn't operational, and ambushes are lurking around every corner while your army is still in unskilled peasant and unforged metal bar form. I posted this in the Dwarf fort discussion forum once, and it's advised you just brave through it best you can.

5. During the animal bomb, or even in normal fights, sending 100% of your dwarves into the fray may not be a good idea. Lots of dwarves at once will kill voidwalkers fast, but their AoE death wails will usually affect them all. I usually leave one squad off the fight, so if the frontline fighters are all dizzy and shit from the death wails, these fresh fighters can go in and continue the fight. This is a risky approach, though, since voidwalkers need every dwarf you have to be attacking them so their not doing the same to your dwarves. I noticed this problem in a siege yesterday, all my dwarves dizzy and vulnerable, prompting me to train up a new squad for this reserve tactic. Since all the voidshard whips were lying around, I drafted some farmers into the late lasher squad.

 My 3*3 embark has no flux, but lots of minerals. Iron, iovium (small amount) and orichalcum are present. Ferrovanadium is also present, but not in the layers I operate in. Tetrahedrite galena and splaherite is also present, but they goes without saying.

[TehNoob]

... This mod has a lot more strategy depth in it than I thought...   

This inspires me to go on DF now and gen a new fort to resist the voidwalking basterds!

[Carn]

I posted this in the Dwarf fort discussion forum once, and it's advised you just brave through it best you can.

It saddens me that any suggestion about improving the core game is met like this. I understand the fanbase's love of the game and it's creator, but ANYTHING can be improved. DF certainly has massive issues with optimization and especially it's UI, being often non-intuitive , and the learning curve (most menus don't even use the same letters for the same furniture or building). If anyone saw the NY times interview with today recently ( called "the brilliance of dwarf fortress" ) The interviewer said the one time he was bitter was when he mentioned minecraft, and how it did so well financially and was so popular. Toady raged at it being due to a "problem with society". The problem being that people like to be able to play the game I suppose.

Anyway, enough about that, it can't be helped. Thank you for the tips about sieging! If I manage to stick with one fort long enough to see a big siege, they should certainly help the FPS.

Do you request whips from human caravans, or make them yourself? I know people are all excited about whips vs light armor because of the way they're written in the raws, just wondering what the best way to acquire them is.

I honestly think they're a little silly, I'd rather not see them carve people apart the way they do, but to still be effective if they could have some kind of pain or paralysis attached to them, that only works when they contact bare flesh.

That's kind of how whips actually work anyway, they're used to disarm, disable, and disorient. They are for making an opponent easier to beat, not cut them in half.

[Pan]

The mid game fatigue? Thats like, a player condition. I'm not sure what you mean.

I get the whips from voidwalkers. Glistening voidshard whips are quite dangerous.