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Total Members Voted: 137

[Meph]

I'm having a bit of a problem. I'm a few years in and things are relatively smooth, but a few weeks/months after loading my game my dwarves will start attacking each other. For no apparent reason, a few of them will become threatening to the other dwarves, scaring them away, and eventually get themselves killed by threatening one of my soldiers. Soon after, more people will be 'infected' by this whatever, and eventually it all goes to hell.

Any ideas? All the infected dwarves have excellent moods and nothing anywhere to indicate a disease or some such. They appear to just walk randomly around the fortress, not even chasing anyone they threaten.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php?title=DF2012:Faction&redirect=no#Loyalty_cascade

Dont know what started it, but this is your explanation.

[Raap]

Ah, thanks. Thought maybe it had to be something with the mod, since I'd never seen anything like it before.

The first fighting report I see has to do with a tame Watcher attacking some of the other animals in my pasture. At the time I'm also slaughtering some stuff from that pasture. It's right after the watcher attacks that it all starts, though I'm still not sure how it relates to an Engraver and a Planter, the two people I can find who have declared war on my(and their) civ.

*edit*

Or not. I just noticed that I suddenly and completely lost control over a couple of dwarves. As in, I stopped being able to see their skills and set jobs. Only lasted for a couple of seconds, but it was enough to have them attack another dwarf. Then, just as soon as it came, they reverted back to their normal selves. This didn't appear to be related to loyalty; both before and after the incident, they were members of the correct civ. It might have triggered the loyalty cascade though, if they attacked someone while 'converted', then got attacked back after reverting.

But I've no idea what caused the temporary conversion in the first place. Is there something in the mod that could cause this?

[Putnam]

Yes.

[greycat]

A slightly more hinty hint: look at section [OT1] in the manual (lfr_manual.txt).

[Raap]

Haha, love it. I just killed the 'antidote' to that problem since I was sure they were causing the loyalty cascade.

[SalmonGod]

I had this happen in my current fort, too.  Massive fight broke out suddenly in the middle of my residential zone.  I thought the riot was going to spread and wipe out everything.  Luckily, everyone spontaneously got over it after only a few deaths.

[narhiril]

I had this happen in my current fort, too.  Massive fight broke out suddenly in the middle of my residential zone.  I thought the riot was going to spread and wipe out everything.  Luckily, everyone spontaneously got over it after only a few deaths.

I'm glad to hear this is actually working.  Honestly, I didn't expect that little feature to work out nearly as well as it did.  When I first started playing around with it, I was afraid it might be too ambitious to do with interactions alone and that some unforeseen problem would force me to scrap it.  Luckily, the [OPPOSED_TO_LIFE] tag has some special behavior associated with it, and I got it so that exposing and killing a saboteur doesn't cause a loyalty cascade.  Leaving one alone however, just might.

[SalmonGod]

I had this happen in my current fort, too.  Massive fight broke out suddenly in the middle of my residential zone.  I thought the riot was going to spread and wipe out everything.  Luckily, everyone spontaneously got over it after only a few deaths.

I'm glad to hear this is actually working.  Honestly, I didn't expect that little feature to work out nearly as well as it did.  When I first started playing around with it, I was afraid it might be too ambitious to do with interactions alone and that some unforeseen problem would force me to scrap it.  Luckily, the [OPPOSED_TO_LIFE] tag has some special behavior associated with it, and I got it so that exposing and killing a saboteur doesn't cause a loyalty cascade.  Leaving one alone however, just might.

It was really weird...

I just noticed a bunch of cancellation spam and tracked it to this one dwarf that was wandering around making everyone upset.  I tried to order my military to kill him (not thinking about potential loyalty cascade), but they wouldn't accept the kill order.  So I stationed them next to him, and they attacked and killed him... but then everyone nearby started fighting each other.  A few dwarves died as I scrambled trying to quarantine that floor and get everyone sane burrowed somewhere with supplies to wait it out.  Hand-picked everyone who wasn't involved in the fight to a burrow, but nobody listened.  Made another burrow and assigned the entire fort, thinking the rioters wouldn't listen anyway, and right then the fight just spontaneously dispersed.  I think there were even a couple dwarves that were fighting each other who just stopped.

Not sure if that's behaving as you hoped or not   I'm not really clear on what happened.  I've never had a real large-scale loyalty cascade, but it didn't seem to match the ones I've read about.

[narhiril]

I had this happen in my current fort, too.  Massive fight broke out suddenly in the middle of my residential zone.  I thought the riot was going to spread and wipe out everything.  Luckily, everyone spontaneously got over it after only a few deaths.

I'm glad to hear this is actually working.  Honestly, I didn't expect that little feature to work out nearly as well as it did.  When I first started playing around with it, I was afraid it might be too ambitious to do with interactions alone and that some unforeseen problem would force me to scrap it.  Luckily, the [OPPOSED_TO_LIFE] tag has some special behavior associated with it, and I got it so that exposing and killing a saboteur doesn't cause a loyalty cascade.  Leaving one alone however, just might.

It was really weird...

I just noticed a bunch of cancellation spam and tracked it to this one dwarf that was wandering around making everyone upset.  I tried to order my military to kill him (not thinking about potential loyalty cascade), but they wouldn't accept the kill order.  So I stationed them next to him, and they attacked and killed him... but then everyone nearby started fighting each other.  A few dwarves died as I scrambled trying to quarantine that floor and get everyone sane burrowed somewhere with supplies to wait it out.  Hand-picked everyone who wasn't involved in the fight to a burrow, but nobody listened.  Made another burrow and assigned the entire fort, thinking the rioters wouldn't listen anyway, and right then the fight just spontaneously dispersed.  I think there were even a couple dwarves that were fighting each other who just stopped.

Not sure if that's behaving as you hoped or not   I'm not really clear on what happened.  I've never had a real large-scale loyalty cascade, but it didn't seem to match the ones I've read about.

That's behaving exactly as I had hoped.  One of the things that saboteurs do is incite fights, but the fights don't always break out immediately (as that would make it too easy to identify the saboteur).  It sounds like some of the fights didn't break out until after the saboteur was killed and the surviving fighters lived long enough to have snapped out of it. 

Left alone, saboteurs will cause dwarves that they interact with to occasionally go berserk for a short time, which can be particularly devastating if the dwarf is a military unit.  They will also poison civilization members, causing odd and crippling symptoms that only a very talented diagnostician will be able to recognize as a deliberate poisoning.

The only concrete way to identify a saboteur is to have a nearby watcher, which will expose them with an interaction.  Note that once exposed, a saboteur will go for broke and attack anything nearby - which usually means that they will break straight for the watcher, which is extremely fragile and doesn't stand a chance on its own.  Exposed saboteurs will have (EXPOSED) appended to their names.  Killing an exposed saboteur will not cause negative thoughts in their friends and relatives.

[SalmonGod]

I'm impressed

It's the perfect sort of thing for challenging an established fort.

[narhiril]

DFHack r4 just dropped, so I'm doing some updates tonight to move over to that for the next release.  The good news is that r4 allows for a lot of new stuff, like automatic vein digging as veins are discovered, buildings that can only be built above ground, and running commands from reactions (oh boy, THIS will be fun).  The bad news is that some syntax for autoSyndrome was changed, so I'll have to run through those raws to update and test them again.

[Pan]

... break straight for the watcher, which is extremely fragile and doesn't stand a chance on its own...

Actually, I've found watchers to be rather resilient to attacks, given they have only a body. Some watchers somehow got out of the fortress once during a siege (I think they can fly? Not sure.) and were pummeled by a pack of shedim for quite some time before they eventually managed to kill it. Same thing with zingers, which works really well in my favor since I pasture them in range of marksdwarf towers to spot ambushes. Still, I suppose zingers and watchers being able to tank so well is not intended?

Made a bronze spider today. Woo hoo! Glad to see this working at last, though the mechanic does tend to drop all clothing, haha. Just out of curiousity, Narhiril, what is the spider deployment hub supposed to look like, and how does it work, lore-wise? Looks like a purple gem. 

On a side note, I find it hard to abandon LFR fortresses that I get bored of, given that I will need to tech all over again. Looks like this mod is helping me out with my commitment issues, haha.

[narhiril]

Made a bronze spider today. Woo hoo! Glad to see this working at last, though the mechanic does tend to drop all clothing, haha. Just out of curiousity, Narhiril, what is the spider deployment hub supposed to look like, and how does it work, lore-wise? Looks like a purple gem. 

That "drop all clothing" thing might be a thing of the past soon with some new DFHack magic.  The deployment hub is... kind of a work in progress.  I should probably change it to look like a box or something.

[Jilladilla]

running commands from reactions (oh boy, THIS will be fun).

I don't know whether to be excited or terrified...

[Putnam]

You were able to run commands from reactions back in r3 with autoSyndrome...


however, you can run commands from syndromes in r4, and they can affect the creature who got the syndrome, so... hehe, it's gon be good the kind of stuff you can come up with there.

For my drow mod, I made a "finger of death" interaction that runs a command that causes the affected unit to die instantly of old age. If they can't die of old age, they bleed to death. If they can't do that, they just disappear. It kills anything.