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What would you most like to see next from LFR?

More tech tree!
- 36 (26.1%)
More ritual tree!
- 8 (5.8%)
More lore!
- 12 (8.7%)
More mythical weapons/armor!
- 22 (15.9%)
Plagues!
- 28 (20.3%)
More secrets!
- 21 (15.2%)
More mechanical constructs!
- 11 (8%)

Total Members Voted: 137


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Author Topic: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.21a *=*=* [DF 0.34.11]  (Read 404061 times)

Lewa263

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18b *=*=* [DF 0.34.07]
« Reply #2280 on: April 28, 2012, 02:08:48 pm »
Alright, I downloaded this a few days ago and I am liking it. But I feel I sort of trapped by the tech tree and rituals. The results are randomized on many of the reactions involved, and the only way to know what results I got seems to be constantly watching the workshops and checking the items within after the dwarf is finished. Is there a better way to determine this? Some way to make the game announce results, maybe?
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narhiril

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18b *=*=* [DF 0.34.07]
« Reply #2281 on: April 28, 2012, 02:26:11 pm »
Quote from: wyrdness on April 28, 2012, 01:53:05 pm
I made the changes to my files and now the meowkin emissary isn't a child anymore, but the caravan guards are still cut off in the middle for some reason. At least the lads/ maidens/ traders seem to look fine. Not that it really matters to me, I'm a crochety old dwarf lord and I tend to keep my doors shut against sieges and caravans alike.



Thanks for the screenshot, that helps a lot.  If you don't mind, can you also post the contents of your graphics_lfr_custom file?
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wyrdness

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18b *=*=* [DF 0.34.07]
« Reply #2282 on: April 28, 2012, 03:47:42 pm »
Quote from: narhiril on April 28, 2012, 02:26:11 pm
Thanks for the screenshot, that helps a lot.  If you don't mind, can you also post the contents of your graphics_lfr_custom file?

Err, yeah, I imagine that would be more useful!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Pan

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18b *=*=* [DF 0.34.07]
« Reply #2283 on: April 29, 2012, 04:14:40 am »
Quote from: Lewa263 on April 28, 2012, 02:08:48 pm
Alright, I downloaded this a few days ago and I am liking it. But I feel I sort of trapped by the tech tree and rituals. The results are randomized on many of the reactions involved, and the only way to know what results I got seems to be constantly watching the workshops and checking the items within after the dwarf is finished. Is there a better way to determine this? Some way to make the game announce results, maybe?

I believe narhiril is planning a tech tree overhaul. Look back couple pages, I believe.
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simonthedwarf

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18b *=*=* [DF 0.34.07]
« Reply #2284 on: April 29, 2012, 11:45:11 am »
"Kas Leadbreached the Impervious Controller was a colossus bronze born in -190 and died in 80 (Struck) by the kitty kitty meow meow Champignon Riddlewheat, in a duel."
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Sentry towers, manned by orang-utangs./quote]

Jilladilla

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18b *=*=* [DF 0.34.07]
« Reply #2285 on: April 29, 2012, 12:50:38 pm »
Quote from: simonthedwarf on April 29, 2012, 11:45:11 am
"Kas Leadbreached the Impervious Controller was a colossus bronze born in -190 and died in 80 (Struck) by the kitty kitty meow meow Champignon Riddlewheat, in a duel."

I swear those cats use cave-in traps...
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simonthedwarf

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18b *=*=* [DF 0.34.07]
« Reply #2286 on: April 29, 2012, 01:15:28 pm »
im like:
okay
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Quote from: Syndic
Sentry towers, manned by orang-utangs./quote]

Putnam

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18b *=*=* [DF 0.34.07]
« Reply #2287 on: April 29, 2012, 01:58:38 pm »
Meowkin are notoriously badass in worldgen. It baffles all.
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Stirk

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18b *=*=* [DF 0.34.07]
« Reply #2288 on: April 29, 2012, 02:29:05 pm »
Meokins are invincible in worldgen. We have many hypothesises about how that goes down, but no one knows for sure. Giant monsters, Megabeasts, wardens, Cell, it does not matter. They can cut them up like ribbons.

In any way, they get my vote on the top...
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Pan

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18b *=*=* [DF 0.34.07]
« Reply #2289 on: April 29, 2012, 02:35:49 pm »
Fluffy wamblers. It's the only logical way a comical cat creature could have defeated the bronze colossus.

Narhiril, what would the next LFR version be about?
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Speakafreak22

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18b *=*=* [DF 0.34.07]
« Reply #2290 on: April 29, 2012, 11:27:52 pm »
Is there a way to use mayday for this?
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Pan

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18b *=*=* [DF 0.34.07]
« Reply #2291 on: April 30, 2012, 12:10:59 am »
Making the graphics compatible for other tilesets other than Ironhand is something Narhiril will probably work on in the future. I like Mayday too, but there isn't any for now. You could try to install this atop a mayday df. That would result in some tiles being weird (like winding spires looking like vermin) and ores looking like kobolds such. But if you can ignore these things, it should be Mayday - mostly.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 12:12:58 am by Pan »
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narhiril

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18b *=*=* [DF 0.34.07]
« Reply #2292 on: April 30, 2012, 10:41:17 am »
Quote from: wyrdness on April 28, 2012, 03:47:42 pm
Quote from: narhiril on April 28, 2012, 02:26:11 pm
Thanks for the screenshot, that helps a lot.  If you don't mind, can you also post the contents of your graphics_lfr_custom file?

Err, yeah, I imagine that would be more useful!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I still don't really know what's wrong, so I'm just going to post one that works for you.

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=6235

Overwrite both the file and the old image - I suspect the problem is coming from messed up image dimensions.


Quote from: Lewa263 on April 28, 2012, 02:08:48 pm
Alright, I downloaded this a few days ago and I am liking it. But I feel I sort of trapped by the tech tree and rituals. The results are randomized on many of the reactions involved, and the only way to know what results I got seems to be constantly watching the workshops and checking the items within after the dwarf is finished. Is there a better way to determine this? Some way to make the game announce results, maybe?

I wish I could get the game to announce them, but unfortunately, that isn't the case.  It probably isn't worth watching every single alchemical experiment and such (I certainly don't).  Ritual transformations are announced because the game announces creature transformations.  Other than the research for the weapon upgrades, there isn't much that you actively need to watch for.  For unlocking the tech advances, just get some few experiments going (ideally with !!MAGMA!!), set the research reaction on repeat, and then check back later to see what you got.  Since none of the advancement slabs have a material, they remain in the workshop until otherwise disposed of (this is intentional).

Quote from: Pan on April 30, 2012, 12:10:59 am
Making the graphics compatible for other tilesets other than Ironhand is something Narhiril will probably work on in the future. I like Mayday too, but there isn't any for now. You could try to install this atop a mayday df. That would result in some tiles being weird (like winding spires looking like vermin) and ores looking like kobolds such. But if you can ignore these things, it should be Mayday - mostly.

For those of you who are curious, this is what graphics support looks like...

1) Changing all of the mineral tiles manually.
2) Changing all of the plant tiles manually.
3) Re-painting every stage of every workshop manually.
4) Maintaining these changed files separately from the ironhand and ascii versions.

These are all things I'm willing to do, but it's a lot of (pretty mundane) work.  I can't give you any sort of estimated time frame on that, but it is likely that I will do support for Phoebus' set before Mayday's, seeing as a lot more people have been badgering me about that.  It's planned, yes, but it might be a little while before I get around to it.

Quote from: Pan on April 28, 2012, 05:04:47 am
Quote from: Dohon on April 28, 2012, 03:15:51 am
After reading azrael300's list, a question popped up in my mind. What is your stance on gunpowder and primitive guns, narhiril? Right now, Dwarves are pretty mechanically advanced (springs, moving parts, mechanical armour even), so, guns wouldn't be too farfetched. And it would seem to be a loud, smelly, smokey yet Dwarven counter to the Voidwalkers projectile cannons. To my eyes at least. But then again, I always imagine Dwarves to be short, dour and stocky fellows, clad in masterwork armour, who grumble in their beards as they take aim at a rushing throng of grobbi and then release a thundering salvo of gunpowder-propelled oversized musket balls.

Glorious. I am thinking of fricking Warhammer here, except it's the heavily armored warriors of Khorne with the big ass guns.

Although bullets don't tend to take a limb off. They just blast you full of holes. Not even shotguns shoot arms off. Void projectors can.

By the way, Narhiril, what did you think of my suggestions for the paragon temples to allow a dwarf a new body? Veterans with voidwalkers and bog trolls always have motor nerves severed, or limbs chopped off. I like my veterans for storyline purposes. Just make the reaction expensive. Actually, I don't know why the ritual reactions are all so cheap right now. If turning a normal man takes an aluminum bar and some cyrstals, or some iron bars and fuel, then I'd imagine the entire world to be ritual dwarves. I, for one, find emberlight costs merely makes them all the more real, and it controls me from turning just about everyone into an emberlight. But author and popular opinion comes first, of course.

Let me address these in order.

First of all, primitive gunpowder is something that I was initially more opposed to than I am now.  The "hold up," of sorts, has been that small, blunt objects travelling at high speeds don't tend to cause the kinds of wounds in game that you would normally associate with gunshots - either they lack the penetrating power to puncture even the weakest armor, or they hit with so much force that instead of creating an entry wound, the literally just blow the target backwards.  The magnetic dart launcher was my attempt at creating a more flavorful experimental ranged weapon (ironically, it takes a higher level of technology than basic firearms would, but I took some artistic liberties).  I am not ruling out gunpowder, but I need to work through some issues before I can make it work properly.  When custom siege weapons become possible (way down the DF road), I plan to add cannons.

Second, healing.  I do plan to implement a reaction to heal a dwarf completely, but I am saving it for the Cathedral of Visthel, which I haven't worked up to yet.  It's coming.

Third, and finally, cost of ritual units.  Let me hit these one at a time...

----

Emberlights currently cost 10 coal, 2 ash, 1 wood, and 2 iron bars.  The major reason that this was reduced from before was because of the extreme length of time it took for a dwarf to assemble the necessary reagents (33 in all, originally).  I feel like this adequately restricts emberlights to larger fortresses that have either built magma workshops (and, thus, have earned the favor of the god of fire) which have fuel to spare, or fortresses which are swimming in flammable materials.  If you're not sitting on a mountain of coal or a magma pipe, ten fuel can be pretty daunting, especially because the reaction only seems to work about a third of the time - I'm still mad about this, but whatever, can't do anything about it.  Even optimistically assuming that one in two reactions works out, that's an average cost per emberlight of 20 fuel plus some ash, wood, and iron.  If you're not running magma forges, that's pretty steep.

Wavebreakers take 5 stone, 3 silver bars, and 6 cobalt bars.  Again, assume a 50% success ratio.  Cobalt is pretty hard to come by until you get the experimental materials workshop going, so this restricts wavebreakers to fortresses that have either imported the material or advanced far enough to make it themselves.  Even then, 12 cobalt bars is almost enough to make ammunition for an entire dart launcher squad, and you're paying that, on average, per unit...  plus silver.

Zephyrs take three raw green glass gems and an aluminum bar (aluminum, being light, seemed a natural choice for the wind goddess).  Aluminum is very, very rare - you're basically forced to rely on imports and the prayer for ritual metals to get any sort of sizable quantity of it.  After five years, my (test) fortress has built up about 15 of them.  Zephyrs are a little bit easier to make than stonekin, and I might take down the probability of getting an aluminum bar from the prayer and see what that does.

Stonekin cost a silver bar and a rough mountain heart.  Mountain hearts are really, really rare, and you can't import rough ones.  After five years with the prayer for ritual gems on repeat, I have six of them.  That seems pretty fair, in my opinion.

Tempests cost five gold bars.  From a cost standpoint, these are probably the easiest to get due to the alchemy reactions to produce gold, but you should take note that turning all of your soldiers into tempests is a really, really bad idea.  Tempests take an initial hit to strength and toughness, and also have NO_PHYS_ATT_GAIN, but not NO_PHYS_ATT_RUST - so their physical strength will slowly wither away over years of using their power, making them extremely poor choices for front line troops.  In short, you can make a lot of them, but you won't want a lot of them, as they make poor workers and poorer soldiers.  It's only worth having one or two around for the combo and stun abilities, preferably stationed on a ranged weapon squad where their frail frames are less vulnerable to being snapped in half by bog trolls.

I appreciate your concern over the cost of ritual units, and I acknowledge that the fine art of balance is never quite finished, but I think the current ritual units are pretty decent from a cost/benefit perspective.  Tempests and zephyrs are the most likely to see some tweaks in the future.

I must confess, some of the reasoning that has gone into this development has been partly because of my own bias.  I remember nothing in gaming being more frustrating than throwing a ton of time and effort into something with the possibility of no return, so I designed the cost of the ritual units such that failing a few reactions (even in a row) isn't totally crippling, especially considering that these are the weakest of the ritual units to come.  With the next tier of ritual units, costs will be a lot more extreme, but they will be one-time unlocks to produce a reusable ritual item.  After you invest the resources to acquire this tool, you can use it as often as you like - the catch being that you never know exactly what is going to happen when you do.  You could get that paragon you wanted to be your king for the next milennia, but you could also get any number of other things (permanent bunny transformation, nasty contagion, summoning a demon, etc) that will make you think twice about using the item again.  What I like about this is that it encourages players to build temples in remote locations, trying to give themselves a buffer zone between their citizens and any potential disasters, you you'll basically have dwarves going on "pilgrimages" for certain gods within your site.  It's going to be fun.  :)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 11:42:47 am by narhiril »
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Meph

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18b *=*=* [DF 0.34.07]
« Reply #2293 on: April 30, 2012, 12:31:56 pm »
Did not read all, sorry for that, but saw the mentioning of wood and alternate fuel. It is correct that trees can only drop logs, no matter what material, even wood from other trees (a palm dropping oak wood) will work, but nothing else. If you want to cut them/make extra fuel, you need a custom reaction accepting only logs of that reaction.

For alchemy as fuelsource I do use alcohol + oil = 3 coke. This way you need to farm it, slow and workintensive, but endless supply. I did not want to base it on inorganic materials, since the normal bituminous/lignite already does this. (I know they are strictly speaking organic, or once were that)

I hope I find the time to check out your fancy new version one day :)

PS: Boiling tree logs with syndromes and even starting fires after a tree is felled does work as well, without the actual tree boiling away or burning down the area when it grows.
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Pan

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Re: *=*=* Legends of Forlorn Realms (LFR 2012) v0.18b *=*=* [DF 0.34.07]
« Reply #2294 on: April 30, 2012, 08:31:08 pm »
Lustrum is a good source, and is everywhere. I wonder why that has not been mentioned. With lustrum rocks, a vein gives hundreds of refined fuel. And those veins are everywhere. Fuel has never been a problem in any of my forts.
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