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[blizzerd]

i did not really know "exactly" where to post this, but i think it will fit here

since im not a native English speaker, i often look up stuff like "lye" or "potash" to know what exactly they are, and what i should expect in order to make these things

so after strictly keeping to shields, i looked up "buckler", expecting a "weaker" version of the shield

what i found astounded me, a buckler is actually a type of shield used entirely different then other shields, although most shields know today are actually hybrids (the ironer, small round shield and fencing shield) for this post i will separate all shields in ether being "bucklers" or "shields" where shields encompass any shield that is not a buckler (the roman tortoise shield, Greek hoplite shield or Spartan shiels as seen in the movie 300) and bucklers are any shield worn on the fist, not the arm with a thick halve globe shaped centre piece

a small exert from wikipedia

--

A buckler (French bouclier 'shield', from Old French bocle, boucle 'boss') is a small shield, 15 to 45 cm (6 in to 18 in) in diameter, gripped in the fist; it was generally used as a companion weapon in hand-to-hand combat during the Medieval and Renaissance, as its size made it poor protection against missile weapons (e.g., arrows) but useful in deflecting the blow of an opponent's sword or mace. There are two major forms of medievally documented bucklers. The first is a simple round shield with the fist positioned directly behind the boss with a variety of shapes of face and depths of rim. These could also have projections from the top and bottom as in Hans Talhoffer's Fechtbücher or serrated rings around the boss as in one example in the Wallace Collection. The second major form is a corrugated rectangle as suggested by Achille Marozzo in his Opera Nova.

MS I.33, considered the earliest extant armed-combat manual, (around 1300) contains an early description of a system of combat with buckler and sword.

Uses

The buckler was more widely used than is commonly known. It was a simple yet effective weapon, often combined with a short sword, falchion, or rapier. It was popular circa 1100 to 1600.[1] The buckler had a variety of roles when it came to swordplay, but five principal means come to the fore as described in MS I.33. Each use recognizes the shield's small size and maneuverability when dealing with light blades.

    * Hand protection: The primary use of the buckler was to protect the sword hand.
    * Deflector: The buckler's lightness and curved center made it excellent for deflecting attacking blades. Such a deflection would leave the attacker open for a rapid counter-attack.[citation needed]
    * Blinder: The light blades used in conjunction with the buckler depended on rapid movements, which meant that a single second was an important advantage. The wielder of the buckler could use the buckler to shield his sword-hand's position from view, keeping his opponent from guessing his next strike.
    * "Metal fist": A buckler could be used to directly attack an opponent by punching with either its flat face or its rim.
    * Binder: The buckler could be used to bind an opponent's sword hand and weapon as well as their buckler against their body. The buckler was also very useful in grappling, where it allowed an opponent's arms to be easily wrapped up and controlled.
    * Sight light: In france, a type of buckler was created that had a small door in it. in thes small door was a hole that the soldier would put a candle in to provide light.
--

id say currently in game bucklers are just a "weaker" form of shields... maybe because the guy that programmed this game isnt supposed to know EVERYTHING and that's forgiveable ofc, but i think we should debate how to change the shield into its actual being what it was... if that makes sense

so overall, what i seem to be getting is the following, although incomplete list gives a clear difference between both the types

only a buckler was often used to:
-disarm enemies (using the edge of the buckler or the "bowl" on the buckler to "grasp" an enemy weapon away from the enemy
-destroy enemy weapons by having weird spikes and edges, so that enemies weapon blades get stuck or break
-beat enemies as a blunt or sharp weapon (flat or dome shaped surface and the round edge around it, bucklers are held by the fist, shields by the arm try to beat someone with something weighing 50 kg on your arm...)
-hide the attacking hand to trick the opponent or to outmanoeuvre the opponent

both a shield and a buckler was often used to:
-protect the hand holding the main weapon while striking
-deflect blows from swords and hammers alike (bucklers would tend to more "push" blows in mid-air away from the target so they would miss and shields would more try to stop or deflect the blow by guarding behind it or absorbing the blow due to its weight (last version was less efficient and sometimes painful, since still some of the kinetic power would be transferred to the wearer, but lets just say it did not kill you, and a hammer blow would)

only a shield was often used to:
-protect the hand, arm, and most of the persons shielded side against missile attacks or spears
-use in a formation, like the hoplite spear formations and tostudo formations

question is, how can we put at least some of this awesomeness in the game so we dont have "a good shield and a crappy one" any longer?

[Necro910]

To summarize this thread for all you lazies:

Bucklers were small shields held in the fist, used for blocking swords and beating the shit out of people.

[Marthnn]

Bucklers were small shields held in the fist, used for blocking swords and beating the shit out of people.

By opposition to regular shields, which were big and held by the lower arm, used to block melee and ranged attacks but too big and heavy for fast strikes.

[Syrup Roast]

counter-intuitively, but for game balance I guess.

Maybe we can keep shields as they are(having a better blockrate than bucklers since they're bigger AFAIK), but make bucklers such that they cannot be used for striking opponents. So you'll end up with a choice of having your army with shields that block better but sometimes get in the way of weapon attacks, or bucklers that don't block as well but ensures that the axedwarves won't spend ten pages pummeling the metalFB with the shield.

[Spaghetti]

Whilest fighting in the SCA you have to be hyper aggressive with a buckler since it offers less protection but there is more chance with a larger shield to get up close and use it to pin down the arm (or smash them in the face which is deadly... a reason its illegal in the sca to shield punch)

[EveryZig]

Bucklers were small shields held in the fist, used for blocking swords and beating the shit out of people.

By opposition to regular shields, which were big and held by the lower arm, used to block melee and ranged attacks but too big and heavy for fast strikes.

So bucklers are the ones that you DON'T buckle onto your arm? Oh English language...

[Necro910]

Bucklers were small shields held in the fist, used for blocking swords and beating the shit out of people.

By opposition to regular shields, which were big and held by the lower arm, used to block melee and ranged attacks but too big and heavy for fast strikes.

So bucklers are the ones that you DON'T buckle onto your arm? Oh English language...

Nope. Shields are for shielding against attacks and arrows.

Bucklers are for swashbucklers that will beat the living shit out of you and then kill it infront of you, before turban whipping you do death.

[Girlinhat]

Actually, you can blame the French for this.  According to wikipedia, "buckler" is derived from "boss", which is the round bump in the front of a shield used to deflect attacks rather than outright block them.  A buckler is like a shield that's been stripped down, until only the boss remains, and is held in the hand instead of the arm.  Since a buckler -is- the boss of a shield only, it makes sense.

Also, shields are considered a type of armor, and as such don't modify well.  Armor can be used to designate where it protects, vaguely, and how much it protects.  Armor cannot have an attack type, as previous attempts to make edged shields have shown error log reports that basically say "mismatched token for armor type" and no attack was performed.  Thus, any type of directed or intentional attacks will have to wait until armor is improved upon.  Also a buckler can, in theory, be made to guard the hand and wrist, by adding the glove's token for UPSTEP:1 or 2, I believe.  This will make it function like a gauntlet, in that it will take attacks, and you can provide it a lower coverage so that it doesn't always block like a gauntlet does.  Other than that, you can't really let the buckler do anything in wrestling, aside from the rare shield-punch as soldiers are apt to do.  There's no real way to specify "equipping a buckler increases wrestling and disarming".

So, a wonderful idea, but currently impossible.  Perhaps post this in the suggestions forum instead.

[Marthnn]

Actually, you can blame the French for this.  According to wikipedia, "buckler" is derived from "boss", which is the round bump in the front of a shield used to deflect attacks rather than outright block them.  A buckler is like a shield that's been stripped down, until only the boss remains, and is held in the hand instead of the arm.  Since a buckler -is- the boss of a shield only, it makes sense.

Please note : "boss" is the right french pronunciation for a bump, but don't try to look that up in a dictionary. It's written "bosse". And Buckler comes from the french word for shield, which is "bouclier". That makes much more sense.

As for the rest, agreed.

From a francophone irritated by poor french references.

[Girlinhat]

*does not speak French, though she would love to.  Was working off what the wiki seemed to infer*

[blizzerd]

actually both of you are correct, i may not be a francophone, but i know my history, plus some French... from living in a 50% French speaking country

what i was thinking of your comments, together with my notes in the OP that in the awesome future,

bucklers should be a weapon with "armor" value comparable to a glove

a blunt weapon of-course, taking from wrestling skill for damage (it seems close to it) and not providing ANY missile defence capabilities
also on each attack done to it (enemy hits hand with buckler on it), it has a chance to make the enemies weapon get "stuck" in it for 1 frame (basically disarming the enemy)

a shield would then be the alternative that actually defends a lot against bolts and blows (as it already does now, no change suggested) but does not provide the additional aggressive tone to it of beating the living shit out of your enemys face + possibly disarming them in the process as he tries to defend himself

i think much dwarfyness would be had trying to figure out which is best in what type of combat

[Girlinhat]

Body parts already have a "stuck in" status for weapons, when any piercing or slicing weapon can get lodged firmly in the wound.  Explored in adventure mode, a stuck weapon is rather a pain, as all you can do is twist it.  Similarly, weapons could get stuck in a buckler when deflected, but you couldn't twist it so it would just be stuck until dislodged.

[blizzerd]

excellent, its all going according to plan...

RELEASE THE FLYING KILLER MONEKYS

[Poindexterity]

Bucklers were small shields held in the fist, used for blocking swords and beating the shit out of people.

By opposition to regular shields, which were big and held by the lower arm, used to block melee and ranged attacks but too big and heavy for fast strikes.

So bucklers are the ones that you DON'T buckle onto your arm? Oh English language...

thats what i was trying to put into words.

[Naryar]

Frenchman here, and I'm pretty sure than shield = bouclier and buckler = targe.

Anyways, I see a shield as the classic kite-shield shape, and a buckler as a small, round shield roughly three or four times smaller.