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[The Doctor]

If you straight up replace your brain with another copy, made of different materials (silicon instead of carbon, machine instead of organic), even if it had the exact same data, it obviously wouldn't be you.

But if, instead of a one-second you're organic, next you're machine, what if it was a gradual process? What if one neural connection at a time was changed? Would it be you in the end?

To up the ante, what if you were awake in the process? If there is some sort of change, if at one second in the process you are you, and the next, you're a copy, would you feel that change? Or would being awake negate that change?

[Vector]

How about:

The brain you inhabit changes from moment to moment.  It is physically different at every snapshot of time.

Why do we say it is the same brain?


Read some more Nietzsche and call me in the morning =)

[Earthquake Damage]

Consciousness (as in "the soul", not "being awake and alert") remains a mystery AFAIK.  So, for now, all we have is speculation (mostly baseless, though a suitable expert may have some inkling).  Until we have the technology (and legal environment) to allow proper tests, that's all we'll have.  But hey, if your navel fascinates you, knock yourself out. 

[MaximumZero]

If you have a boat, and you replace the whole thing one board at a time, is it still the same boat?

[Realmfighter]

The brain you inhabit changes from moment to moment.  It is physically different at every snapshot of time.

Why do we say it is the same brain?

Because Our Moment is the Total sum of all Moments leading up to it, so that it seems like our every shifting Moment is not made up of countless parts but instead one solid whole.

Don't make me Rant like a crazy person. God knows that I've thought about the topic enough to do it.

[KaelGotDwarves]

The brain you inhabit changes from moment to moment.  It is physically different at every snapshot of time.

Why do we say it is the same brain?

Because Our Moment is the Total sum of all Moments leading up to it, so that it seems like our every shifting Moment is not made up of countless parts but instead one solid whole.

Don't make me Rant like a crazy person. God knows that I've thought about the topic enough to do it.

It's not "our" moment. We're just a self-conscious bit of the universe suspended on a speck of dust in a sunbeam. A conglomeration of aesthetic sensatory systems comprised of a bag of carbohydrates, proteins, lipids, and water trying its damned best not to reach chemical equilibrium with the environment.

[Realmfighter]

Without your Moment there is no Universe. The Universe isn't Cold Matter Flying through Space towards its Apathetic Demise. It is every Brilliant Sunrise, every Terrible Wave, Every Poetic Field and Every Amazing Sight. Without the Moment the Universe is nothing but Cold Dead Matter. Without the Moment the Universe that you know doesn't exist. The Universe you know is made up of Emotion, Wonder and Greatness. The Universe without the Moment is nothing Except itself. The Moment is your and it is the most important thing that there is. Without the Moment nothing you know or Love exists, because without the Moment it is nothing but Cold Pointless Matter.

[MaximumZero]

Welp, we've had a monk weigh in on the subject. (Not just any monk, mind you, but the sexiest flaming monk you could possibly ask for.) If this doesn't resolve itself with his next response, it never will.

[Earthquake Damage]

Welp, we've had a monk weigh in on the subject. (Not just any monk, mind you, but the sexiest flaming monk you could possibly ask for.) If this doesn't resolve itself with his next response, it never will.

Sexy sexy Realmfighter~~ countered a "you are insignificant and the universe doesn't care" with "the self alone determines subjective things like value/purpose/'ownership'", if I'm not mistaken.  This duel of minds and wills has only just begun! 

[MaximumZero]

[as Bob Costas] That, he did. Let's take a look at the replay. You see here that Kael, Wielder of Flame sets up a perfect "Emotionless Universe" spin, and Realm retaliates by simply reversing the spin! How amazing was that move, folks? *canned cheer* After we take a commercial break, we'll see if one of these two logical and spiritual duelists uses the tried and true "I am the Universe, the Universe is Me," before too long. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. [/costas]

[Heron TSG]

The Universe isn't Cold Matter Flying through Space towards its Apathetic Demise. [. . .] The Universe you know is made up of Emotion, Wonder and Greatness.

Actually, it isn't entirely cold, and it isn't entirely matter. However, it is merely a bunch of particle conglomerates flying through space until they stop moving. The emotions are merely chemicals doing the same thing.

Doesn't mean it isn't one hell of a ride, though.

[Realmfighter]

But The Universe as seen by You and Me and Every Human who has existed is Alive. It is Beautiful, Terrible or Something in between but It is Alive. Without the Moment it is Nothing more then death. Humans aren't insignificant. We are everything that we have ever seen or Imagined. If we are nothing then so are all of those things Nothing too.

I am slightly deprived of sleep and I'm going to bed soon. I don't know if my point is getting across so I'll try and state as straight forward as I can. Everything that has Existed is the Product of your Mind. You mind may take information from the Outside, but it warps the Information with its own Ideas, Prejudices and Imagination. The Universe isn't the Information, because you've never know that and it is as foreign as a concept can be. The Universe is your Take on that Information, which without your perception is Gone forever.

Hopy Shit that was not in any way straight forward. PLEASE DON'T MAKE THIS THREAD EXPLODE WHEN I'M SLEEPING.

[KaelGotDwarves]

I was going to reply with a somewhat snarkier comment, but then I read MaximumZero's post and laughed. You would think that after 8 months as a monk: meditating, quietly reflecting, dealing with birth, death, sickness, weddings, divorce, a multitude of lives, hopes, dreams, emotions, and insight into myself and life - I would know better than to spend my time debating online. Part of my karma is that of a denizen of the internet.

In reply to Realmfighter - The universe will still ontologically exist once "our moment" is up. Humans are actually rather insignificant in terms of the universe, but the human experience is all we know. The universe exists beyond us, and it's only with practice that we can come to an understanding of the nature of it, and find lasting happiness and wisdom. We can sit here debating that the self exists, or doesn't exist, that reality is infinite, or that it is finite, until the end of time. We won't solve those philosophical questions. All I'm saying is that we only know what we construct from our epistemological bases, that is, we have our senses and we build from that. But our sense organs, this vessel we call the self, it's just stardust, base elements - made up of smaller particles. Down to energy. Which is all those synaptic bursts going off in our brains telling us that we exist, that we think, that we feel, are comprised of.

@MaximumZero: I'm definitely not saying that we live in an "Emotionless Universe". We indeed supply the emotions. But my universe definitely isn't made of "Emotion, Wonder and Greatness", it has emotion, wonder, and greatness because I have given it that meaning.

We are never going to find the meaning to life. We should spend time giving meaning to it instead. I am not going to argue with the meaning that you have given to your life and universe, but we all should know that the universe is more strange, wondrous, and beautiful than what most peoples' five senses and mind can comprehend.

For starters, go stargazing at night with a loved one and bring some Sagan along. :3

EDIT: But then again, scale is an entirely anthropomorphic invention and you can derive just as much meaning from the cosmos as you can in a quiet moments reflection by yourself and some cats. Who is to judge.

[MaximumZero]

Glad to see I got a laugh. ^_^

[Vattic]

If you straight up replace your brain with another copy, made of different materials (silicon instead of carbon, machine instead of organic), even if it had the exact same data, it obviously wouldn't be you.

To who would it obviously not be you? If it were such an exact copy then people would only know if told, though, perhaps the scars would give it away?

Why do we say it is the same brain?

Read some more Nietzsche and call me in the morning =)

From a less than philosophical perspective I'd say that we see it as the same because understanding things in that way was good for our survival and likely still is.

On the topic of Nietzsche I've only read Beyond Good and Evil. My family would always ask me what I had been studying and it's one of the only things that caused complete outrage. Even the first page made my step-dad red in the face. The argument started with "that's so bloody ridiculous don't be a fool" and I don't mind argument but it wasn't the kind I enjoy.

-snip-

I was going to play devils advocate and disagree with a number of your points but it's both been far too long and I've been up over 15 hours ten of which were spent doing manual labour. Hopefully when I get up my mind will be clearer.

Suddenly the personal text under my avatar seems appropriate in more ways than one.