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Author Topic: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?  (Read 13127 times)

Ahrimahn

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Re: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2011, 09:20:19 pm »

Actualy toady stated he's not interested in adding stuff like steam or firearms. Altough I think he mentioned adding explosives.

Guns existed way before steam was used as a power source, and gunpowder existed way before it was used in firearms, which I think fits into the tech era Toady wants DF to be limited to.
Yeah in my opinion explosives just make sense for dwarves they dont fight in areas where long distance really matters so guns are really only useful to scare enemies and a dwarf with an axe is far scarier than a boom-stick and they do enough digging that powder kegs and bombs would work very well towards mining and defense.

drkpaladin

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Re: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2011, 03:45:34 am »

I could see dwarves using some combination of blood, soap, alcohol, and black powder to start really doing some explosive terrain damage.

10 years from now?  We'll probably be seemlessly hopping between adventure mode and fortress mode within the same game, able to control single units abroad as merchants, diplomats, and assassins or even accompany armies sent out by your fortress as lone soldiers or generals.  Demons and undead and the insane remnants of failed forts will threaten to overrun the world, and the only hope will be to unify or conquer the sentient races to provide a united front to drive them away.  Some forms of magic will be implemented, which will allow over time a fortress to crossbreed dragons with kittens, making a fast breeding, flying, fire breathing mount just large enough for the kobold children you kidnapped as an adventurer and brought home to use as a mount when they are old enough to hold a copper dagger, which is a marginal improvement over the massive 6 legged, 2 headed wardogs you managed to obtain through inbreeding over a hundred years.  Megaprojects will span the entirety of world-gen.  FPS will no longer be an issue, because 10 years from now, technology will have caught up to the game finally, enabling the entire world to be run simultaneously to your fortress.

You'll still have to start up with 7 dwarves, or alternatively the ragtag army you gathered in adventure mode, and set off with oregon trail style.
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Gatleos

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Re: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2011, 04:10:47 am »

10 years from now?  We'll probably be seemlessly hopping between adventure mode and fortress mode within the same game, able to control single units abroad as merchants, diplomats, and assassins or even accompany armies sent out by your fortress as lone soldiers or generals.  Demons and undead and the insane remnants of failed forts will threaten to overrun the world, and the only hope will be to unify or conquer the sentient races to provide a united front to drive them away.  Some forms of magic will be implemented, which will allow over time a fortress to crossbreed dragons with kittens, making a fast breeding, flying, fire breathing mount just large enough for the kobold children you kidnapped as an adventurer and brought home to use as a mount when they are old enough to hold a copper dagger, which is a marginal improvement over the massive 6 legged, 2 headed wardogs you managed to obtain through inbreeding over a hundred years.  Megaprojects will span the entirety of world-gen.  FPS will no longer be an issue, because 10 years from now, technology will have caught up to the game finally, enabling the entire world to be run simultaneously to your fortress.
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GHudston

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Re: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2011, 11:26:50 am »

Right now Dwarf Fortress is like the most delicious cake you will ever eat, except it's buried under a layer of dirt and you're expected to eat it with a single chopstick. Give me a modern UI and some graphics that live up to the gameplay and I'll be happy.

Hopefully in 10 years (preferably sooner) our delicious cake will be presented on a silver platter and eaten with a jewel encrusted spoon.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2011, 01:02:56 pm »

Right now Dwarf Fortress is like the most delicious cake you will ever eat, except it's buried under a layer of dirt and you're expected to eat it with a single chopstick. Give me a modern UI and some graphics that live up to the gameplay and I'll be happy.

Hopefully in 10 years (preferably sooner) our delicious cake will be presented on a silver platter and eaten with a jewel encrusted spoon.

Most unrealistic expectation yet :P

I think Toady specifically hates trying to make pretty graphics at this point, after what happened with Armok 1, and is thoroughly uninterested in ever trying again.
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Kurara

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Re: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2011, 01:24:57 pm »

Explosives would be great. I'd love to "mine" by packing explosives, the amount and the type of rock would determine the tiles destroyed in each direction.
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Ahrimahn

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Re: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2011, 01:26:39 pm »

Right now Dwarf Fortress is like the most delicious cake you will ever eat, except it's buried under a layer of dirt and you're expected to eat it with a single chopstick. Give me a modern UI and some graphics that live up to the gameplay and I'll be happy.

Hopefully in 10 years (preferably sooner) our delicious cake will be presented on a silver platter and eaten with a jewel encrusted spoon.

Most unrealistic expectation yet :P

I think Toady specifically hates trying to make pretty graphics at this point, after what happened with Armok 1, and is thoroughly uninterested in ever trying again.
What happened with Armok 1? I've been looking for screenshots or even just a download anything to see what it was and find out about it and never found anything its always seemed interesting checking out the origins of the game.

NW_Kohaku

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Re: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2011, 01:40:29 pm »

What happened with Armok 1? I've been looking for screenshots or even just a download anything to see what it was and find out about it and never found anything its always seemed interesting checking out the origins of the game.

Try looking at this: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3549/interview_the_making_of_dwarf_.php?print=1

Reading through that...

Quote from: Toady in an interview
I eventually wanted to put in extra miners though, and since it was turn-based, it started to drag like a battle in an SSI Gold Box game. And instead of rewriting the game, I thought, well maybe it should be dwarves instead. And it should be real-time, to combat the SSI problem. Now, you'd be digging out minerals in a mountain, combating threats inside, and making little workshops.

The Gold Box games were wonderful! They were some of the best games of all time, and practically my introduction to video games of any sort.  They did NOT "drag on", and they certainly packed more action and strategic planning into the game than DF does.

Even the games that are just dumbed-down versions of SSI Gold Box games, like Advance Wars are spectacular games that sail way above the mainstream gaming market, and I won't brook insults to them.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
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GHudston

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Re: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2011, 04:06:58 pm »

Right now Dwarf Fortress is like the most delicious cake you will ever eat, except it's buried under a layer of dirt and you're expected to eat it with a single chopstick. Give me a modern UI and some graphics that live up to the gameplay and I'll be happy.

Hopefully in 10 years (preferably sooner) our delicious cake will be presented on a silver platter and eaten with a jewel encrusted spoon.

Most unrealistic expectation yet :P

I think Toady specifically hates trying to make pretty graphics at this point, after what happened with Armok 1, and is thoroughly uninterested in ever trying again.

I really hope that this isn't the case. I love DF and everything that toady has done and I really struggle to imagine that he'd be so incredibly short sighted.

As much as I love the game (and believe me, I love it a -lot-), when I think rationally I know that DF is only a success because there is nothing else like it. The day that someone comes along and pulls off even remotely the same gameplay with pretty graphics and an accessible UI is the day that Dwarf Fortress becomes "That game that inspired *insert massively successful game here*".

It's not even that the game is too complicated or even that the learning curve is too steep, it's just that the menu's are so cluttered and unintuitive that even intermediate players need to have the wiki open at all times in order to play. There is absolutely no reason why it should be like that, it just needs for Toady to take a step back and rethink it from the ground up. With a sensible UI, anyone could play this game without having to dumb anything down or remove any features.

The same goes for the graphics, which are an oft forgotten gameplay mechanic. I'm talking about readability here; without a tileset, DF can be nigh impossible to "read" at a glance and, especially in a game with so much going on, it's really important to be able to get as much information as possible from what you're seeing on screen. There is so much content in DF and only a limited number of symbols to represent it. It's a shame, especially as it shouldn't be too difficult to make a massive improvement in this area.

Note: I am not saying that pretty graphics are more important than gameplay by any means, but that DF has amazing gameplay in spathes and is drastically lacking in the things mentioned above. I'd love for Toady to make the game more "well rounded" in that respect and I hope that he knows how important it is...

10 years is a long time! ;)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 04:09:03 pm by GHudston »
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metime00

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Re: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2011, 04:36:03 pm »

On the graphics note, roguelikes do perfectly fine with only text graphics, and thus is really a non-issue and a basic fact of the game. It's in ascii, period (except for those with tilesets).

On the UI note, Toady has stated that a intuitive UI would be unintuitive to develop for. The features and actual mechanics are ever changing, and he can't/won't spend a large chunk of his time to keep the interface good because he wants to focus on the actual game first.
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GHudston

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Re: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2011, 06:30:56 pm »

On the graphics note, roguelikes do perfectly fine with only text graphics, and thus is really a non-issue and a basic fact of the game. It's in ascii, period (except for those with tilesets).

On the UI note, Toady has stated that a intuitive UI would be unintuitive to develop for. The features and actual mechanics are ever changing, and he can't/won't spend a large chunk of his time to keep the interface good because he wants to focus on the actual game first.

The trouble is that DF is extremely complex and becoming moreso with every patch. The amount of ascii symbols available is much, much lower than the number of things that need to be displayed. "It's supposed to look like that!" is an excuse that is used to deflect unwanted criticism and it is always counter productive, the game has grown past it's roguelike roots and I see no reason why it needs to hold itself back by clinging to them. There is a reason why so many people say that they love reading about Dwarf Fortress but don't enjoy playing it, it's a shame to not address that problem.

I almost see where you're coming from about focusing on the game first, but generally you develop the UI and the user experience alongside the rest of the game to save yourself headaches. I fear that the longer Toady leaves it, the harder it will be to reorganise everything into something intuitive. I'm sure it would be a nightmare as it is now, so I hardly blame him for not wanting to go back and fix it at this point but it will just get harder if he doesn't.

Either way I will continue playing and loving Dwarf Fortress as always, but I do so wish that it was easier to get at my delicious cake. I trust that Toady will make it happen eventually and, like I said, I can dream! :D
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 06:35:15 pm by GHudston »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2011, 06:53:56 pm »

On the graphics note, roguelikes do perfectly fine with only text graphics, and thus is really a non-issue and a basic fact of the game. It's in ascii, period (except for those with tilesets).

On the UI note, Toady has stated that a intuitive UI would be unintuitive to develop for. The features and actual mechanics are ever changing, and he can't/won't spend a large chunk of his time to keep the interface good because he wants to focus on the actual game first.

The problem with that line of thinking is that a bad enough interface occludes good gameplay. 

Say, tell me, right off the top of your head what the stats of some of your dwarves are.  What about how many wood cutters you have in your fort?  How about how many of those wood cutters have some other job enabled?

If you don't know all those things in advance because you set up your fort along very strict guidelines, how long is it going to take you to go through the z-detailed stats of every dwarf in your fort to figure things like this out?

There's Dwarf Therapist and now, Dwarf Guidance Counselor is taking a crack at trying to format the information on dwarven stats in a manner that actually matches stats to the jobs and skills that a dwarf can do, because collating all the data, and turning it into information is essentially impossible to do without creating your own spreadsheet and working for half an hour.

And when I say "half an hour", I mean I tend to spend twenty minutes just reading through my starting seven, and figuring out how I want to build those guys.  That's not even a hundred-dwarf fort where I have to figure out how to somehow manage stocks screens with hundreds of individual items, dozens of workshops, a hundred dwarves, and hundreds of pages of data on all sorts of bizarre random aspects of my fortress. 

When you include gameplay mechanics like personality traits and stats, you need to give the player an ability to see what impact those mechanics actually have on the game so that they can make intelligent decisions based upon that information.

The game right now, however, just generates reams and reams of data, and doesn't care the least bit for making it actually readable by the player, so the player just ignores most of it, and all that data is doing nothing but wasting space on your hard drive, if not making your fortress run worse because the doctor hates healing people, so he/she refuses to do it, and just lets your dwarves die instead of treating them.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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Nasikabatrachus

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Re: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2011, 07:46:59 pm »

In ten years, Dwarf Fortress will be able to simulate a player playing Dwarf Fortress, after which Toady will take it into closed beta testing.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2011, 07:59:57 pm »

In ten years, Dwarf Fortress will be able to simulate a player playing Dwarf Fortress, after which Toady will take it into closed beta testing.

And do what, dumpster-dive for food during "beta testing"? 

DF is Toady's sole source of income right now, and "alpha" is meaningless when he's been running his business model off of the game for years, and even taken money on the specific promise of added functionality in the form of specific animals. 

The only term that really describes DF's state right now is "playable work in progress". 

Considering as it is unlikely DF's business model will change, even as it nears "completion", (whatever that means,) the change to "beta" and "gold" will be a meaningless semantic afterthought, as Toady will need as many people as possible to continue playing and donating to keep the game going.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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Tlc2011

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Re: What would Dwarf Fortress look like 10 years from now?
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2011, 08:05:02 pm »

Slaves to Armok: God Of Blood III: DWARF KINGDOM

THE EPIC ONLINE GAME BASED OFF OF THE INDY GAME: DWARF FORTRESS!

CREATE YOUR DWARF!

BUILD YOUR REALM!

FIGHT HORRIFYING MONSTERS!

SLAVES TO ARMOK: GOD OF BLOOD III: DWARF KINGDOM! GET IT NOW!
EDITEDIT: Fuck, it's a custom thing for World of Warcraft...I might consider buying that now.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 08:12:10 pm by Tlc2011 »
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