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[devek]

Haha, that article on Zosimos was pretty hilarious. I wish I had a time machine to go back and cock punch that guy.

But you know, the very article you brought up about Islamic Alchemy does say,

The study of alchemy and chemistry often overlapped in the early Islamic world, but later there were disputes between the traditional alchemists and the practical chemists who discredited alchemy. Muslim chemists and alchemists conducted experiments, while Muslim alchemists also developed theories on the transmutation of metals, the philosopher's stone and the Takwin (artificial creation of life in the laboratory), like in later medieval European alchemy, though these alchemical theories were rejected by practical Muslim chemists from the 9th century onwards.

Seems to me like the Muslim scientist were no different than my guys, they recognized garbage for what it was

That being said, maybe Goblin alchemy would work. Did you check out the Chinese article?

When ingested, these compounds did not always result in the desired outcome. Many individuals died or had psychological difficulties after taking certain elixirs. However, the loss of life may not have seemed a large risk, when compared with the promise of the afterlife. Although these elixirs were lethal or dangerous, there is some contention that these individuals were not ignorant of the fatality of some of the materials they were ingesting. Cooper states that "there seems to be little doubt, however, that some of these lethal preparations were taken with full knowledge of their effects and that the subsequent death was a deliberate journey to the next world, in full faith of attaining immortality." (pg. 55).

There were certain grades of immortality, so if the practiced alchemist died - as they all inevitably did - the level of immortality they achieved was determined by their corpse. If their corpse was sweet-smelling, it was said that they had achieved immortality in an ephemeral state. Likewise, if their corpse disappeared, leaving behind only the clothes, such as in the death of an adept named Ko Hung, this was another form of immortality known as shih chieh hsien (corpse-free immortals)

I can see goblins doing that, lol.

[Jeoshua]

Ingesting strange chemicals in the search for immortality has a long history.  And many of them, being psychoactive in nature, would probably lead to the belief that it had worked somehow, leading to more ingesting of psychoactive chemicals in the search for further immortality.

It's a vicious cycle, really.

The way I see Goblins, they would have no use for alchemy.  Maybe they would want to get immortality and all that, but they'd be more likely to abduct an alchemist and force him to make chemicals.  And since, as we've noted, many of these compounds are psychoactive or otherwise dangerous, it could account in part for the goblins' propensity for extreme insanity.

[Jeoshua]

Heres a thought on Alchemy as it might pertain to DF:

Elven Alchemy - Zosimos would be proud.  Basically the search for enlightenment, trying to find the philosopher's stone, etc.  Elves have long long lives and can afford to engage in this kind of nonesense.  Little to no practical use, as it's basically religious in nature.

Human Alchemy - "I am teh alkemizt! I will make teh goldz for joo!"  Charlatans, appointed by greedy Kings.  Maybe the best of them figure something out.  Most likely, however, turning lead into gold will take a healthy infusion of money for it to work.  So in a way, it works.  Or least "turning lead into gold" leads to gold for the alchemist in question.

Dwarven Alchemy - Practical, honest, scientific chemistry.  Focused on such things as "transmutation of unsmeltable ore into metals", creating black powder or other chemogadgets, and other real world applications.  Dwarves are the most practical of beings, if anything.

Goblin Alchemy - Not applicable.  When they want alchemy done they steal it.  Certain captives might feed them "immortality medicines" that may be at least partially responsible for the long lives and also their uber insanity

Sorry, I just hate when I make a talkable idea and it's the very last thing on the page... people miss it

[Supercharazad]

Zosimos is basically the man we have to "thank" for Alchemy as we've been (mis)understanding it.  Before him, there were those who believed that base metals into gold was possible, and tried many an experiment to try to do it, since their theories said it might work.  After Zosimos, however, Alchemy became as we know it today.

Heres a thought on Alchemy as it might pertain to DF:

Elven Alchemy - Zosimos would be proud.  Basically the search for enlightenment, trying to find the philosopher's stone, etc.  Elves have long long lives and can afford to engage in this kind of nonesense.  Little to no practical use, as it's basically religious in nature.

Human Alchemy - "I am teh alkemizt! I will make teh goldz for joo!"  Charlatans, appointed by greedy Kings.  Maybe the best of them figure something out.  Most likely, however, turning lead into gold will take a healthy infusion of money for it to work.  So in a way, it works.  Or least "turning lead into gold" leads to gold for the alchemist in question.

Dwarven Alchemy - Practical, honest, scientific chemistry.  Focused on such things as "transmutation of unsmeltable ore into metals", creating black powder or other chemogadgets, and other real world applications.  Dwarves are the most practical of beings, if anything.

Goblin Alchemy - Not applicable.

Goblin alchemy could be golins bringing blood and such, feeding it to a demon and then throwing whatever comes out at dwarves

[Geneoce]

I like and support the idea of real world chemistry being used by alchemist. But theres nothing wrong with a bit of "magic" in it. We have dragons, immortal elven hippies and skinless females that borg you and then replicate 

Doing some funky things where the explanation is just "magic" is pretty intune with the dwarven way. If its handled right.

If its just X goes to Y via special powers though....thats a bit dry.

[Supercharazad]

Haha, that article on Zosimos was pretty hilarious. I wish I had a time machine to go back and cock punch that guy.

But you know, the very article you brought up about Islamic Alchemy does say,

The study of alchemy and chemistry often overlapped in the early Islamic world, but later there were disputes between the traditional alchemists and the practical chemists who discredited alchemy. Muslim chemists and alchemists conducted experiments, while Muslim alchemists also developed theories on the transmutation of metals, the philosopher's stone and the Takwin (artificial creation of life in the laboratory), like in later medieval European alchemy, though these alchemical theories were rejected by practical Muslim chemists from the 9th century onwards.

Seems to me like the Muslim scientist were no different than my guys, they recognized garbage for what it was

That being said, maybe Goblin alchemy would work. Did you check out the Chinese article?

When ingested, these compounds did not always result in the desired outcome. Many individuals died or had psychological difficulties after taking certain elixirs. However, the loss of life may not have seemed a large risk, when compared with the promise of the afterlife. Although these elixirs were lethal or dangerous, there is some contention that these individuals were not ignorant of the fatality of some of the materials they were ingesting. Cooper states that "there seems to be little doubt, however, that some of these lethal preparations were taken with full knowledge of their effects and that the subsequent death was a deliberate journey to the next world, in full faith of attaining immortality." (pg. 55).

There were certain grades of immortality, so if the practiced alchemist died - as they all inevitably did - the level of immortality they achieved was determined by their corpse. If their corpse was sweet-smelling, it was said that they had achieved immortality in an ephemeral state. Likewise, if their corpse disappeared, leaving behind only the clothes, such as in the death of an adept named Ko Hung, this was another form of immortality known as shih chieh hsien (corpse-free immortals)

I can see goblins doing that, lol.

Imagine you did not know what a lightbulb was, or how it worked. All you knew was that the sun could make light. I flick a switch and it turns on, and then I ask you what it is.


You would undoubtedly say, "well, it must be magic, nothing else could  make light out of thin air like that, it's impossible." Whereas when I explained it to you, you would call it "science, nothing more."

What was first magic to you, became science.

And actually, those alchemists were onto something (barely though), because transmutation IS possible! Once you break things down to the point where is is one material making everything else, you can put that material together in different ways to make other things.

For example, the bits of lead become the bits of gold. Magic to them, science to us. Magic and science are the same.

[antymattar]

This thread has been derailed to death. I didnt even bother to read all the stuff. The idea was not "Do you think that an artificial star is magic". It was "Do you think that a fort could have a dwarf who invented a way to make supermetal by rubbing plumphelmets and kittens together." Also "What if he was the only dwarf who knew how to do that?"

[Jeoshua]

Plump Helmet + Kitten = Messy Kitten

And I'm pretty sure most Dwarves could figure that one out by themselves.

The derailment happened because we all have thought about this, and have our own opinions.  You should be happy this thread has this much discussion, and none of it trolling.  Better threads than this have died because of trolls.

[devek]

I've learned a lot from people debating real life versions of metals, weapons, technology, etc in suggestion threads.

[Jeoshua]

Besides, the discussion of magic vs science is not a derailment at all.  It is the very crux of the issue: Alchemy is the meeting point of Science and Magic, any way you slice it.  From magical principles came scientific theories.  And from scientific inquires came the notion that magical things could be possible.

How Toady answers the question "What is Alchemy?" could set the tone of the game in a big way.

[devek]

Well, if nothing else it would be a cool thing if it could be outlawed.

I would finally have a reason to actually set up a prison in my fort hehe.

[Bohandas]

Besides, the discussion of magic vs science is not a derailment at all.  It is the very crux of the issue: Alchemy is the meeting point of Science and Magic, any way you slice it.  From magical principles came scientific theories.  And from scientific inquires came the notion that magical things could be possible.

Plus, I've heard that you actually CAN transmute lead into gold using a particle accelerator. The problem is that the enormous power requirements and the slow one atom at a time rate of conversion more than cancel out any potential profits (hundreds or thousands of times over, IIRC)

[Dynastia]

No, nothing is or ever was magic. Yes, someone might believe their toaster is magic. Yes, some things are not well understood but anyone who is claiming or has ever claimed to practice magic is a con artist period. This is as true today as it was a thousand years ago. If someone truly found a way to do something magical, they themselves would want to understand it and undergo scientific scrutiny which reminds me of the story of http://www.damninteresting.com/clever-hans-the-math-horse

This is untrue ; magic exists in many cultures as a much more powerful version of the the scientifically observed placebo effect. Medical practitioners tend to accept faith healing or healing magic as beneficial, except where it's obviously going to be harmful (ie ; potions made of feces, rotting meat, etc.), because the benefits have been proven by scientific scrutiny. In most parts of the Mediterranian, the "Evil Eye" is capable of causing impotence and miscarriage if cast on somebody with sufficient faith in its power ; while in Australia, native assassins are capable of casting spells on enemies which quite literally cause them to wither away and die ; even with a hospital full of western medicine trying to keep them alive.

Now, you can say "That's not magic, it's science/psychiatry pretending to be magic", but if that's the case ; what was magic supposed to be before D&D invented the concept of the magic missile?

[devek]

Now, you can say "That's not magic, it's science/psychiatry pretending to be magic", but if that's the case ; what was magic supposed to be before D&D invented the concept of the magic missile?

I will say it, it is just psychology

Magic, by definition, invokes the supernatural. Since, by definition, nothing supernatural exists... Magic is and has always been useful in storytelling or fantasy. Without fiction life would be pretty boring. From a practical standpoint magic is also useful for thought experiments or tricking your children into behaving around Christmas.
 

[Dynastia]

Being non-existent is not the definition of supernatural... unless science just recently discovered everything that exists, and disproved everything that doesn't.

Magical spells might seem explainable and mundane to us ; to the people who have no scientific way of knowing why rubbing that dead baby's hand onto their goiter causes it to heal quicker, it is supernatural. That doesn't change just because there's a society of more educated, more scientific people observing it from the outside and figuring out how it works ; to the people involved, it's magic, and we should define it as magic when it involves those people.