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Author Topic: Mech combat (Version 0.1.4) New build as of 6/5/12  (Read 3872 times)

MirrorIrorriM

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Re: Mech combat (Version 0.1.0)
« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2012, 09:51:29 pm »

Just updated with a new build.  This build is essentially a rework of the entire engine from the ground up.

If it would have been better for me to start a new topic instead of revive one that is almost a year old, please say so.  Reason why I did it is because it seemed fitting to keep one topic instead of creating a new one for each build.
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MirrorIrorriM

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Re: Mech combat (Version 0.1.1) New build as of 3/3/12
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2012, 06:23:02 pm »

Just updated to build 0.1.1.  The biggest change in this one is the ability to save and load mechs.

To help spur some discussion, I would like to ask some advice of how you guys would like to see the game shaped.

I would like to start with some simple questions.

First off, is building the mechs too easy?  Should there be more complex components such as engines, fuel, ammo, or would that just make mech creation a chore?
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Squanto

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Re: Mech combat (Version 0.1.1) New build as of 3/3/12
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2012, 07:03:10 pm »

Downloaded and gave it a try, pretty nice, but could use some swiveling pieces to make turrets viable.  Just make it so the mouse is locked in the window when looking out of the cockpit so its slightly less annyoing.
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Boksi

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Re: Mech combat (Version 0.1.1) New build as of 3/3/12
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2012, 12:57:08 pm »

Just updated to build 0.1.1.  The biggest change in this one is the ability to save and load mechs.

To help spur some discussion, I would like to ask some advice of how you guys would like to see the game shaped.

I would like to start with some simple questions.

First off, is building the mechs too easy?  Should there be more complex components such as engines, fuel, ammo, or would that just make mech creation a chore?
This game could be very fun without worrying about such complex things. At the same time, without a challenge there isn't much of a game, and managing such things would be an interesting one. I'd suggest adding those parts, but not making them mandatory. So if you put a couple of fuel tanks on your mech, it can run out of fuel, but if you skip them it will run indefinitely.

Moving parts are definitely a must. Another little thing I'd like is more precise control of where to put plates; currently they always go in the middle of a given cube on the grid, but I'd like to be able to put them on the top or bottom.

Hovercraft are prone to flipping, and flying with thrusters seems nigh-impossible. One idea, which would admittedly take a lot of time, would be to create some system to automate them, so that the whole construct stays up. I dunno how hard it would be to include auto-balancing, but another idea would be to include some rudimentary 'if-then' programming. In fact, including some rudimentary programming seems to be the only truly viable method to create truly large and complex mechs.

Ah, but maybe I'm getting a bit ahead of myself. Say, have you created any kind of design document? Planning things out before you do them is surprisingly useful.
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MirrorIrorriM

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Re: Mech combat (Version 0.1.1) New build as of 3/3/12
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2012, 01:25:36 pm »

This game could be very fun without worrying about such complex things. At the same time, without a challenge there isn't much of a game, and managing such things would be an interesting one. I'd suggest adding those parts, but not making them mandatory. So if you put a couple of fuel tanks on your mech, it can run out of fuel, but if you skip them it will run indefinitely.

Moving parts are definitely a must. Another little thing I'd like is more precise control of where to put plates; currently they always go in the middle of a given cube on the grid, but I'd like to be able to put them on the top or bottom.

Hovercraft are prone to flipping, and flying with thrusters seems nigh-impossible. One idea, which would admittedly take a lot of time, would be to create some system to automate them, so that the whole construct stays up. I dunno how hard it would be to include auto-balancing, but another idea would be to include some rudimentary 'if-then' programming. In fact, including some rudimentary programming seems to be the only truly viable method to create truly large and complex mechs.

Ah, but maybe I'm getting a bit ahead of myself. Say, have you created any kind of design document? Planning things out before you do them is surprisingly useful.

A lot to talk about here, so I will cover the material in paragraphs.

The problem with making the things like fuel not necessary and having machines that use it now have the disadvantage of running out of fuel, is that it is not very fair in a multiplayer environment.  There are two solutions I see, however.  The first one is to have different "leagues" of multiplayer, one complex and one simplified.  Another solution would be to have something like Solar plating that essentially makes you never run out of power, but you have far less power output.  While if you used something like nuclear fuel rods, or hydrogen fuel cells, you would get much more power, but your fuel would be limited.  Balancing this would be interesting to work out, but I think either solution is a viable one.

Moving parts (I interpret this to be stuff like turn tables) are being worked on now.  I already have a basic turn table that I am programming and works almost perfectly so far.  It still has one major bug, however, and I need to iron it out before release.  For those of you who care to know, the bug stems from the problem of how collisions are managed between the base and top of the turntable.  Long story short, the two rigidbodies the turn table connects don't collide with each other.  Meaning you can make parts of your robot phase through itself!  Once I get that bug fixed, I see no reason why it won't be ready for release.

I have thought a lot about how to make objects not be centered on a surface all the time, and I find it to be a difficult problem.  The problem stems from exactly how to go about the problem.  Would a cube have 9 snap points on each face for objects to grab onto?  Would it have 5 on each side, 4 for each corner, and one for the center?  Would you be able to just hold a button and freely slide the object around on the surface of the part you are placing onto?  The problem with adding one is that it complicates the process of just normally placing a block.  How the system currently works is every block has "points" on the surface of it.  These points hold position data, and they also hold rotation data (this rotation is orthogonal to the surface).  This data is then compared between two objects, the one you are placing and the one you are placing onto, and then it calculates the position and rotation needed.  This system was the hardest thing to code in the entire program, and is why it took me almost a year to go between build 0.0.4 and 0.1.0.  I need a very solid gameplan before I try and change the system.  If you have any suggestions on how it should work, I would be very pleased to hear them.

Hovercrafts flip a lot, this is true, but they do have an automation that keeps them stabilized. The problem with this stabilization, is it only compares the rotation of the machine to the rotation of the ground.  They form a "mesh" from points they collect by projecting a "laser range finder" to the ground.  When they get the data, they all try to align themselves in a way that is the most stable.  The problem is, they sometimes exert too much force in balancing because they do not take the crafts current momentum into account.  I will incorporate it eventually (I definitely should).  I have made some incredibly stable designs with hover when I was testing them, they key is to give them wide bases and center the weight of the machine properly.  Although this makes them a lot harder to build with because you are now managing center of gravity whereas you can almost (almost) ignore it with tracks, they payoff for a well designed hover craft is monumental.

As for flying, helicopter blades are something on my ever growing to-do list.  Gunships would be tons of fun I think.

Ultimately though, mechs are kinda wobbly and unstable and I acknowledge this as a pressing issue.  It took a very long time to get them as stable as they are now.  You may not even notice it when you casually play, but the individual links on the treads are all accommodated for, with 3 points each (for sideways tilt) to properly calculate how to apply forces when moving; even then they still flip on smaller designs.  The hover drives are all trying to apply forces to keep off the ground while at the same time trying to make sure the craft doesn't move into a strange angle.  Sadly with problems like these, I find the only way to solve them is slow adjustments and fine-tuning over time.

Edit : Just wanted to say this before it gets suggested.  In the next build, I have added the ability to place stuff like tracks and hover drives directly onto the ground without them being sideways or facing upwards.  This should make constructing a mech easier for now you can just place the movement components and go from there.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 01:29:15 pm by MirrorIrorriM »
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kytuzian

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Re: Mech combat (Version 0.1.1) New build as of 3/3/12
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2012, 07:14:52 pm »

This is very awesome, in my opinion. I like how the guns push the tank backwards.

However, it is far too easy to go flying off into the sunset with one thruster at 2500 power. Very easy.

Squanto

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Re: Mech combat (Version 0.1.1) New build as of 3/3/12
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2012, 09:03:20 pm »

I haven't actually had much issues with flipping my mechs.  having treads tilted 45 degrees outwards seems to make your bot really want to stay upright... Only way I managed to flip it was slapping 2 2500 thrusters on the back of it and flying it around.
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MirrorIrorriM

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Re: Mech combat (Version 0.1.1) New build as of 3/3/12
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2012, 09:05:00 pm »

This is very awesome, in my opinion. I like how the guns push the tank backwards.

However, it is far too easy to go flying off into the sunset with one thruster at 2500 power. Very easy.

You bring up a good point.  Thrusters are kinda overpowered at the moment.

As a quick idea for how to fix it.  Imagine the fuel consumption of a rocket to be determined by the formula "Fc = 5 gallons per second ^ (force of thruster / 1000)".  What this means is that at 1000 force your thruster would consume 5 gallons of fuel per second it is being operated (these numbers are of course arbitrary).  At powers under this the rocket would take less fuel, but be less efficient because the cost never gets lower than 1.  This is like a minimum requirement of fuel to make the engine run properly (think idling in a car).  Although at all powers under 1000 the fuel consumption is < 5 gallons per second, at the force of 2500, the fuel cost would be a rather steep 56 gallons per second!  Now for that same amount of gallons per second, someone could easily place a bunch of thrusters with force far exceeding 2500.  However, in adding more thrusters, they have to make their mech larger and more heavy to carry those thrusters and their needed fuel.  This of course leads into a snowball effect of making larger mechs to carry more thrusters and fuel and needing more thrusters to fly the thing.  In the end the thrusters would be far less overpowered and much more balanced, being only used for momentary boosts of speed or to make your mechs jump.
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MirrorIrorriM

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Re: Mech combat (Version 0.1.2) New build as of 3/5/12
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2012, 09:46:18 pm »

Just updated with build 0.1.2.  The most important change in this one is the implementation of joints into the game.  This should open up for far more mech design possibilities.  Another notable change is the implementation of new "helper" attachment points on the bottom of locomotion pieces.  These should make it easier to design machines.
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MirrorIrorriM

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Re: Mech combat (Version 0.1.2b) New build as of 3/6/12
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2012, 01:51:44 am »

Just uploaded with a small update that just fixed a major bug. Apparently the turn-tables did not place properly on some people's computers and they would just fall off on start. I tested it on several computers and didn't notice it the first time but it is fixed now (had to collaborate with a few people who had the bug to iron it out). Also there was a small memory leak for turn tables without anything placed on top of them. That is fixed now too.

Edit : I accidentally forgot to change the tooltip for the turn table from saying "DO NOT USE" to an explanation of what it does.  Ignore that tooltip, it should work just fine.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 02:41:54 pm by MirrorIrorriM »
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Boksi

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Re: Mech combat (Version 0.1.2b) New build as of 3/6/12
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2012, 03:42:30 pm »

I checked out the new version and I have to say - Turn tables really add to the game. One minor request: Could you please implement an option for turntables to make them return to 0° rotation when receiving no input?

Right, now I'm off to see if I can make something that resembles a walking machine in this game.
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MirrorIrorriM

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Re: Mech combat (Version 0.1.2b) New build as of 3/6/12
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2012, 04:01:59 pm »

I checked out the new version and I have to say - Turn tables really add to the game. One minor request: Could you please implement an option for turntables to make them return to 0° rotation when receiving no input?

Right, now I'm off to see if I can make something that resembles a walking machine in this game.

I like that idea a lot actually.  I'll make sure to include it in the next build.
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Squanto

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Re: Mech combat (Version 0.1.2b) New build as of 3/6/12
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2012, 05:21:41 pm »

The new turntables are great for turrets and whatnot, but it would also be nice for a "spin freely mode" so I could make some reciporacal partial arcs that will repeat infinitely while only holding one button.  That would make it a bit easier for things like walking legs or other fun stuff.  Right now the resistance in them while not moving jams up the movement and if I do change  it so the other joints move that then it only works for half a cycle.
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MirrorIrorriM

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Re: Mech combat (Version 0.1.2b) New build as of 3/6/12
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2012, 06:13:11 pm »

The new turntables are great for turrets and whatnot, but it would also be nice for a "spin freely mode" so I could make some reciporacal partial arcs that will repeat infinitely while only holding one button.  That would make it a bit easier for things like walking legs or other fun stuff.  Right now the resistance in them while not moving jams up the movement and if I do change  it so the other joints move that then it only works for half a cycle.

That isn't that hard to do.  Just gotta change some variables.

I think I'm gonna start keeping a list of suggestions...
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MirrorIrorriM

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Re: Mech combat (Version 0.1.2b) New build as of 3/6/12
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2012, 07:13:02 am »

To help fuel discussion some more I would like to ask everyone their opinion on the pace of the game.  On the one hand I could go for mechs getting faster and more maneuverable, such as mechs in armored core.  On the other hand I could go for drastically increased stability and customization and make it more like mech warrior.  One option you end up with a game that places far more emphasis on your skill at piloting, the other it places much more emphasis on construction and getting the "best" design.  The first one, however, by making movement and everything faster, your customization becomes less and less important.  With the second, your skill becomes more and more an after thought for the importance is placed on design.

What is everyone's opinion on how the game should be shaped?
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