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Author Topic: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.  (Read 5907 times)

Shoku

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Re: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2011, 11:03:14 pm »

These wouldn't get a lot of mileage as they won't have a big role in politics or have complex ruins to explore. Between those and the lack of armies for big battles they really don't have much room in many fantasy type stories. Like they could put a little variety into the vagrants or other types of poor people but if it takes a lot of time to explain what they are then they lose their appeal as props; brevity is important in good writing so you really can't afford to waste time on groups of people that aren't central to the story.

Unless maybe if you're writing Les Miserables.
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Max White

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Re: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2011, 11:13:43 pm »

Oh please, the insane adventurer willing to drag randoms away from the safety of home just for the fun of a good plot? They are a built in plot device! What Gandalf did for Bildo, a dwarf will do for anybody! Anyway, wasting time on small races is of the utmost importance if you want a little depth to a world. Things seem nicer if not every race is a single unified nation ready to go to war, paving the way for a RTS to be made. Great worlds have their nooks and crannies to explore.

And I am only 2/10 so far, the 'big' races come later on when I have refined their culture a little. Later today comes the gigas, and tomorrow a race that I havn't settled on a name so far, but will have soon, I'm sure.

Shoku

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Re: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2011, 12:08:22 am »

They can be a plot device, anything can with some writing skill, but they can't be most plots.

I mean there are a thousand different stories about the Native Americans that would work well enough for Panotti but just because you can do stories about them doesn't mean they work all that well in the fantasy setting. Decent story tellers can make a story about some race of inbred hillbillies without even resorting to making them devoid of "humanity."

Really it's the same reason that hobbits didn't infiltrate nearly as much of the media as those other two. Persons without all that royalty and grandeur in their lives can fit into a story but if you want that you can just as well grab up an elf or dwarf that just didn't live near the culture centers. Medieval cities all had a big web of little farming communities to support those high populations sitting on a hill behind a wall for war reasons.

The thing about fantasy is that the story is generally fantastic, oxymoron or not. Knights slaying dragons for princesses and wars fought over magic and piles of gold and so on are kind of the starting point. They don't have to be every story but just like you can take some dwarf or elf to play most roles a hobbit could you can take a human, as in a human from a world of only humans, the play these down to Earth and "normal" sorts of roles.

Unless there's something that really resonates with people about hopping around and exaggerating personal stories why not just cut those trait away along with the "race" and have some human play the role? You've to spend whatever amount of time establishing their personality anyway, so why waste any more time explaining their race? Either you make them a perfect stereotype (and that's kind of counter to the spirit of this isn't it?) or you're multiplying the work you've got to do.
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Supermikhail

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Re: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2011, 05:11:59 am »

I've got a question about the purpose of this thread. I wonder what you're proving with your effort, Max. I don't think people doubt that original fantasy races can be made, at least based on your criteria... I don't think people around here doubt that you're a creative person, either. So do you intend to open the whole world's eyes with a fantasy novel about these creatures after that? You know a good mythos doesn't make a good novel, right? Like Shoku said, you need a plot with personalities to drive it, not races. Making a good plot to go with the mythos might prove a bit harder, that I would call a challenge worth of speculating about at any level.
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scriver

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Re: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2011, 09:21:57 am »

Ohgod, Max, you've racified hobos :P

On a serious note, I'm also questioning this way of going about. So far we've had one generic anthropomorphised animal and a people-of-hats race. I don't think hurrying through the creative process to match this one-race-a-day formula is really the way to write "original" races. You see, both of your peoples have the potential of being breaking out of genericness, but to do that, you have to spend time on them an go indepth. I think this is probably the greatest cause of unoriginality in fantasy, lack of depth and consequencal thinking. Of those who managed to create something "original" or unusual, nobody ever thought it up in one day. The basic concept, perhaps, but it's the flesh and not the skeleton that makes something stand out. It's a process, and you have to let it take it's time.
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Max White

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Re: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2011, 09:35:17 am »

I've got a question about the purpose of this thread. I wonder what you're proving with your effort, Max. I don't think people doubt that original fantasy races can be made, at least based on your criteria... I don't think people around here doubt that you're a creative person, either. So do you intend to open the whole world's eyes with a fantasy novel about these creatures after that? You know a good mythos doesn't make a good novel, right? Like Shoku said, you need a plot with personalities to drive it, not races. Making a good plot to go with the mythos might prove a bit harder, that I would call a challenge worth of speculating about at any level.

Well lets see...
To win a bet, and some money with it.
To work a little on my creative writing skills.
To make some pixel art.
To bring enjoyment to anybody that enjoys reading this.
To maybe inspire another from one of these races, so they may further the idea.
To win a bet! And some money with it.  :D
To bring some lesser known mythological races into light as inspirations.
To provide groundwork for any projects I want to do in the future like a game or something, but I'm too lazy to design races then.

Ohgod, Max, you've racified hobos :P

On a serious note, I'm also questioning this way of going about. So far we've had one generic anthropomorphised animal and a people-of-hats race. I don't think hurrying through the creative process to match this one-race-a-day formula is really the way to write "original" races. You see, both of your peoples have the potential of being breaking out of genericness, but to do that, you have to spend time on them an go indepth. I think this is probably the greatest cause of unoriginality in fantasy, lack of depth and consequencal thinking. Of those who managed to create something "original" or unusual, nobody ever thought it up in one day. The basic concept, perhaps, but it's the flesh and not the skeleton that makes something stand out. It's a process, and you have to let it take it's time.

You may be right, BUT I'LL BE DAMMED IF THAT WILL STOP ME!

No art work today, I'm working on animating something unrelated, and it is eating some time. Still...

The gigas.
The gigas are a race of large, hairless and muscular humanoids, with three fingers and toes at the end of their limbs. They have no eyes, ears, or noses, but do have a rather large mouth over where other creatures of similar proportions would have their abs. Standing at about two to three meters tall, their skin can be a washed out stone grey to a dark blue. Because of their lack of naturally occurring facial features that would be critical for the survival of many other races, they instead susrive by forming a symbiotic relationship with the krat.

Krats are large molluscs, most being about the size of a dinner plate, that survive by attaching themselves to a living host, and digging tendrils into its victim, and absorbing organic matter. Because of the size of this parasite, few species bar the largest can support a krat for longer then a few days. Despite this, to those that can survive, the krat can be useful, especially to a gigas, as in the process of attaching themselves to their host, they will attach to the hosts nerve system, allowing for some level of primitive communication between the two. This is most beneficial as several types of krat have the gift of vision, or hearing, or smell, and can aid the host by providing a source of these senses. The process of a krat tapping into the hosts nerve system, and the host being able to make sense of the senses it has been given, is said to be extremely painful, and takes several weeks, during which most hosts become overwhelmed with pain, and are unable to eat or sleep, so most will die without a caretaker to look after them during this time. It is possible to remove a krat, however, the longer a krat has been attached to a host, the more likely removing it will result in nerve damage, causing permanent numbness, or paralysis.

Because of the risks involved with the krat, few gigas will ever play host to more then one. Different species of krat are farmed by differing tribes of gigas, and each species will hold different traits, such as having multiple eyes allowing for depth perception, having more or less sensitive hearing, or even growing wide and think, as to provide a form of natural armour. Some of the best krat farmers are able to breed species with more desirable properties, with a less parasitic toll, so the strengh of a gigas tribe is often measured by the skill of its breeders.

Gigas themselves perfer to live in natural caves, although as tribes grow larger and larger, in some isolated cases into the tens of thousands, then tunnel further and further below ground, building on their cave network. It isn't known exactly if gigas have the ability to feel rage or anger, however, if they do then they certainly do not feel an adrenalin rush from it, and will act with a level head. Due to there terrifying size, but natural clumsiness from lack of perception, they will use large, heavy weapons that require little skill for maximum force, and as such range weapons are rare for them to use, but they will sometimes employ throwing weapons such as javelins or small axes. In war they are very organised, and their march is said to shatter mountains before them, although this is without a doubt another dwarven exaggeration. For them, war is seen as an effective problem solving method, and thus they often find themselves in conflict with trog colonies for mining rights.

There is mixed controversy about the origin of the gigas. Some say that a biomancer sought to make a 'perfect race' that could be customised to what ever need was troubling him at the time, but hes creation out lived him. While there have been spell casters powerful enough to preform such a feat, it still seems some what doubtful, and is sometimes dismissed as dwarven fantasy. A more popular myth is that they were created with the other minor races by the gods, blind and deaf, but a veran traveller thought to offer them the gift of the krat, and with the ability to see the world in a new light, they began to forge civilisations.

The gigas are completely non magical themselves, but there are few species of krat that have manipulations over simple magics, allowing for gigas to use these elements for themselves. The most widespread of these krat is common called the 'krat infanus', a species that allows for basic manipulation of fire.

Siquo

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Re: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2011, 09:35:19 am »

I don't know about that. Taking 100 potshots should result into something truly original.

More material that needs expansion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cryptids or even worse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legendary_creatures_by_type
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scriver

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Re: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2011, 10:00:08 am »

You may be right, BUT I'LL BE DAMMED IF THAT WILL STOP ME!
Hehe, that's good. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

On the race of the day, I really like the idea of a parasitic/symbiotic (it wasn't really clear how the krat benefited from the relationship ;)) creature being something else than a sentience-less "monster". It's a very promising concept. I'm would very much like to see some art of it as well.
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Max White

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Re: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2011, 10:04:06 am »

Well, the krat get to live. They have to eat something, and gigas is the dish of the day! Also, thinking of basing the next race on this. Whaddaya think?


But no seriously, tomorrow I explain the veran, and the cities they build.

Ultimuh

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Re: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2011, 11:30:17 am »

Interesting, I tend to do abit of.. "world building" myself, tough most of it stays in my head and never get written or drawn.

I like how you made Dwarves different.


edit: typos fixed.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 12:21:30 pm by Ultimuh »
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Neonivek

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Re: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2011, 12:18:02 pm »

Interesting, I tend to do abit of.. "world buildiung" myself, tough most of it stays in my head and never gets written or drawn.

I like how you made Dwarves different.

Same here, I keep trying to put them down and I was thinking of posting them.. but now that someone already did it would be harping on their parade XD

Though I can't say all the ideas I had through the years was good.

For example when I was younger I had Dwarves... however they were huge, the reason why is because Dwarves were actually short because of malnutrician and modernity actually allowed them to grow quite large.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 04:30:53 pm by Neonivek »
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Shoku

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Re: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2011, 12:23:27 pm »

Orewodaredatoomotteyagaru!?

Biologically speaking you could say that more other races have a hard time dealing with the senses of their parasites while the Gigas that never developed any senses have plenty of mental elasticity left over to learn how to use it.

Also molluscs should all be able to smell and see and that, rather it could just be these specially bred ones that can do one of those things very well out of water.


Thinking of water though here's one: Ocean dwellers with the mechanical/tinkerer mindset. I'm thinking cuttlefish-centaur type bodies. The humanoid trunk just sprouts out of where the eyes would normally be so they can walk around on the tentacles for precision balance sorts of things and just have the big cone-butt seem to be sticking out. For swimming it would look like they swallow the upper torso area then just glide along looking more like a plain yet gigantic cuttlefish. With the bodies put together like this there would actually be two brains (the part at the back of a cuttlefish the way they normally face is the "head") so mechanical genius is more easily explained to typical fantasy buffs and gamers.

This also does most of the explanation for some strange behavior on their part as "competing brains in one body" basically says it all. They could have to go hunt land animals or something periodically- the cuttlefish camouflage would give them a significant advantage in hunter type activity or you could go the Indian route and have them talk about being one with mother Earth... no, mother Ocean.
"Sometimes mother Ocean is a bitch."
This would make most sense as spirit journeys where they're really high. This would probably be the only opportunity for them to end up in groups with adventurers. Something happens while they're stoned and then all of a sudden they are indebted to some land traveler type who later join up with the main characters as a group package.

The machines could be rather colossal and formidable tools of war compared to anything other races make but not manage to dominate the land because they all move on some sort of water pressure mechanic, quickly seizing up if their pump intakes leave the water. They could pretty regularly storm beaches and that during times of strife but heroic members of other races save the day by managing to sneak past the fighting and cut off many of the (water) supply lines behind the aquaphile armies.

Downside is that the ocean usually also carries alien connotations so there's less reason for readers to empathize with them as characters. Guess you could give them Asian accents and just make them near perpetual foreigners that the characters never get involved with amicably...

In a more mercantilism dominated setting they could just be jerks about the other races building ships and monopolize sea route shipping of goods- and open the story up to all of the haggling based aggrievances that tend to go with that sort of thing.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 12:30:14 pm by Shoku »
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Max White

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Re: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2011, 04:33:20 pm »

So, all it took was...
Furries,
A race of short hobos,
And headless giants that graft molluscs onto their skin so they can see
And I manage to inspire fish centaurs. Well it is hard to say the project hasn't already been successful, I helped inspire something somewhat new, I guess, and bought a lesser used race into view, the cuttlefish. Although you have fun with that Shoku, they don't get into the official handbook.

Shoku

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Re: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2011, 06:12:13 pm »

A fish-taur is called a mermaid. A cuttlefish-taur is more like an octopus-taur.

I'd already thought of these though, for the most part. I just expanded the idea somewhat after looking at this.

e: You know thinking about it since they cover their head in tentacles to be streamlined for fast movement they're also sailing blind. Actual cuttlefish have the eyes off to the side of there.
Well, giant lumbering manbeasts that run into things when they are in a hurry kind of has its own poetry to it.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 07:58:12 pm by Shoku »
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Siquo

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Re: White Mythos: Max's war on cliché.
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2011, 02:35:37 am »

Oh, and for everyone who complains about all the animal/human chimaeras/hybrids: In ye olden days there wasn't any reference material. In order to describe a creature, people took parts of the creature and then described what they resembled, it's not so that those chimaeras are really glorified mr potatoheads.
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This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
will rena,eme sique to sique sxds-- siquo if sucessufil
(cant spel siqou a. every speling looks wroing (hate this))
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