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Author Topic: Bullying  (Read 8253 times)

Earthquake Damage

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2011, 03:02:32 am »

Eh, perhaps not opposite.  More like e.g. women abuse women for, say, the same reason men abuse men rather than because it aligns them with men.  I'm not sure there's a "need" for men to abuse men to climb the social ladder, though it may be sufficient.  I'm also not sure point #1 is accurate, since the other men may feel the need to protect the "weak" woman (so not defeating your overall point).  And point #3 seems flaky since "it doesn't faze me therefore I'm stronger" doesn't seem to apply to male-male abuse given point #2.  I suppose my problem is less with the message than the spin/framing.

As for the definitions:  On paper, those may be different.  In practice, I'm not sure there's a clear distinction, especially since any combination of those could be true in the mind of a given individual.

Bottom line:  With all my "not sures" and assorted maybes, I should probably shut my damn mouth.  Foolish is as foolish does.
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Darvi

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #61 on: April 22, 2011, 03:47:01 am »

Bullying, huh? For the first ten years, I've lived in the suburbs, or what counts as one here, and it was really bad. Strangely enough, they'd only do it when together, as if they didn't have the balls to go after somebody when alone. In fact self imposed peer pressure probably was the cause for it too. Later I had the same problems with my pre-teen classmates for a year.

It got better later, but I don't know if it's because I took Latin (and none of them would learn it), or because I became a misanthropic lunatic.

Probably both, since there's still people who think themselves as smart with their verbal aggressions because "trololol I never touched you".
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Tilla

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2011, 04:28:44 am »

I think I'll share a bit of my reasoning RE avoiding violence.

Metalworking class, the one real time I defended myself. I was on my back, soaked from puddles after being shoved pretty roughly, my assailants standing over me. These guys were pretty general assholes (and one of them is still to this day from what I hear, over 10 years later, he was expelled from the school later in the year). I was pretty fucking helpless in that state, as I said I was physically disabled with some major back issues. I had been working on a project though, welding and so I had one thing at hand, a set of metal tongs. I went for the biggest asshole and hurled them as hard as I could at his face and connected. This was enough of a distraction at least to get me the fuck out of there and I made it away.

The next day I was suspended from school for defending myself from a severe beating in process, and was called Psycho for the next two years and never left alone by anyone.
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Caesar

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2011, 04:37:26 am »

I think I'll share a bit of my reasoning RE avoiding violence.

Metalworking class, the one real time I defended myself. I was on my back, soaked from puddles after being shoved pretty roughly, my assailants standing over me. These guys were pretty general assholes (and one of them is still to this day from what I hear, over 10 years later, he was expelled from the school later in the year). I was pretty fucking helpless in that state, as I said I was physically disabled with some major back issues. I had been working on a project though, welding and so I had one thing at hand, a set of metal tongs. I went for the biggest asshole and hurled them as hard as I could at his face and connected. This was enough of a distraction at least to get me the fuck out of there and I made it away.

The next day I was suspended from school for defending myself from a severe beating in process, and was called Psycho for the next two years and never left alone by anyone.

It is sad indeed that defending yourself often puts you in the limelight as the villain.

Regarding bullies, my rule is to use violence only in retaliation. I do not care about the consequences if they push me so far. Generally I have found it to be a great mind to fight back through mental means. How, you might ask? Psychology. Sure, I'm not a psychologist, but most of those bullies are actually weak minds to pick on. Just try to find their weakness instead and abuse it. Make them cry, feel like the victim.

And then: Then they'll leave you alone.

It takes a lot of practice and courage, though.
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RF

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2011, 06:36:15 am »

Despite being fat, ugly etc, the only time I got bullied was in primary school and then I sorted it out by putting the kid on the floor.

Well, there were times when I was "bullied" by teachers, but I was usually sharp enough to put them into their place with an insult. "Mr F, you just came into the room and you're already blocking the sunlight." "Yes, sir, and you're a 40 year old man who gets off on insulting kids. Can we learn maths now, please?"

"Sitting there and taking it doesn't really work". You have to respond with overwhelming force. You have to prove you're willing to go beyond the limits of "what's normal" to take revenge. Either that or you get rid of the flaws that they're insulting you about.

Another example: I went to a grammar school and (like I said) I was fat. The uniform was horribly recognisable and kids used to think you were an easy target. The only way to solve this issue was to strike back. Someone's insulting you from across the street? Shout, "Who the fuck do you think you're talking to?" and storm over there. They'll usually scatter before you get there and if they don't they usually reply with, "I was talkin' to me mate, sorry, not you lad."

The issue is that people make themselves a target and then don't seek to rectify the situation. You have to prove you're capable (and willing to) give 10x as hard as you take. If they insult you, you throw their clothes in the showers during "gym". If they do that to you, then you flush their's down the toilet. It'll get to the point where they realise, "Oh, shit, if I carry on I'm going to get seriously fucked up."

I've rambled a lot, so...

TL;DR: If they hit you, put them on the floor crying. I suggest a punch to the solar plexus (should be easy for you lightweight guys) and then your elbow on the back to the back of the head. Boot them whilst they're on the floor if you think you need to.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2011, 07:51:24 am »

Yeah, bullying typically involves social elevation and ego boosting.  It is a psychological thing.  If you can belittle them in the process, you can ruin their motivation for what they're doing.

On the other hand, this really depends on the situation, because quite frankly many bullies are blitheringly stupid to the point that they use it as a shield.  You come up with some clever insult or put down in front of others and they can shrug it off as "LOL you use big words dood, I don't understand you.  Quite reading so many damn books." Crowd laughs and they're free to frame the conflict as purely physical.  I've met this obstacle plenty of times, and it was in a culture that frowned heavily on any kind of bookishness.  They could carry their stupidity openly like a banner and it wouldn't hinder them at all.

And if the bully is more socialite than thug, you're better off just ignoring them anyway.

As for the sexism issues... I don't think it's a subject that can really be explained easily.  There are so many different perspectives, motivations, cultures, etc at play.  I mean I agree with Vector's explanations in general on an academic level.  It's easy to see how those explanations line up with instincts present in the majority of pack mammals.  At the same time, we're more complex creatures than that and it's easy to frame things differently or list cases from personal experience that contradict those explanations.

One of the biggest problems with social behavior theories in general, and this is a good case of that, is they tend to undermine its own validity by being impossible to disprove.  This was one of the first things my Psych 101 class made as a point of caution.  It's easy to get caught up in one thought formula because of how easy it is to filter any input through, without realizing that you're conforming your data to the theory and not vice versa.  This doesn't mean it's wrong, but it does call usefulness into question.

Male = Violent/Dominant
Female = Anything else

Any behavior can be easily re-framed to fit the theory without leaving room for other explanations.  If a female is acting violent/dominant, they're trying to usurp male power.  If a male is being violent they're just being male.  If a male is being nonviolent/submissive, they're just weak/low on the social ladder and know they can't challenge their superiors.  If a female is submissive, they're just being female.

I honestly hope you are not offended by and enjoy me losing my composure a little and expressing myself very frankly for a while.  In two parts.



Yeah, I still have problems... just like everyone else.  I feel I can at least get away with sharing them here.  I might post my summarized relevant life story thing tomorrow, as some others have.


Edit:

The issue is that people make themselves a target and then don't seek to rectify the situation. You have to prove you're capable (and willing to) give 10x as hard as you take. If they insult you, you throw their clothes in the showers during "gym". If they do that to you, then you flush their's down the toilet. It'll get to the point where they realise, "Oh, shit, if I carry on I'm going to get seriously fucked up."

This basically requires being worse than the other person.  I can't do this and can't bring myself to recommend it to others.  'They started it' has never been sufficient reasoning in my mind to dish out more than one takes, unless one faces death or permanent injury.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 07:56:02 am by SalmonGod »
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As the end will come so soon
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Heron TSG

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #66 on: April 22, 2011, 08:21:32 am »

"Hey, look!  Solve the misogyny problem and you probably won't have the fucked-up male homosocial problems, either!"
Right! And we can solve the murder problem by fixing the thievery problem! Can you explain the correlation, here?

You need to abuse other men to gain more power within the male social structure itself.
In what societies? I can tell you that this is not how it works in any school I've been to, over here on the west coast of America.

women get away with abuse of men almost whenever they want.
What kind of man are you if you can't take someone weaker trying to usurp you?
Did you actually just say that? It sounds to me like you just said women are weaker than men. They're not, and I'm ashamed of you for saying something so vulgar and... wrong. I hope that was sarcasm, or possibly a twisted joke. But you know what? Women abuse men quite often. They just don't report it.

And women abuse each other plenty too but that's something I hardly understand at all.
Easy.  The primary way to gain power is to align yourself with men.  First way to align yourself with men?  Abuse women.
If this is the case, explain to me why abusing a woman will get you abused by any given one of my friends? (Abusing anyone at all, actually.)

Hey look, stereotypes! Men are always the oppressors and evil! They're all in some secret pact to all abuse women and high-five about it later! That's how they make friends!

 :-X
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 09:02:23 am by Barbarossa the Seal God »
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Est Sularus Oth Mithas
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Tellemurius

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #67 on: April 22, 2011, 08:30:32 am »

you guys are really going far with that sarcasm ::)

TheDarkJay

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2011, 08:56:43 am »

I know someone who got bullied, friend of mine. It started off as usual manageable steal-his-pencil-case shit in class (happened to all of us) but escalated. His response? Cut it off by delivering the single most epic verbal beat down I have ever been witness to. I mean, this took like five minutes and in that time he managed to bring his bullies near tears. He left nothing untouched, not their families or crippling personal issues, not their inevitable menial fates, not their own appearance, nothing. And it worked.

Come College (16-18 years of age in Britain) and he was one of the most popular people there.

The problem with dealing with a bully is usually the people being bullied hold back, either physically or verbally. Don't. Let is all fly.

If you get into a fight with them: Put them in a hospital and do it with a smile on your face.

If you start snarking at them, destroy their whole family and make them so inferior to you in every possible way. If you go for the later, make sure as many people are around as possible to bear witness. The former, as few as possible because that way the rumours will be even worse than what you did.

To people who say "don't bring yourself down to their level"...well, that's true, if you want to win you have to go lower. If they are physically superior that even if you get the jump you can't take them, if they are smarter than you so much that you can't verbally demolish them...well, then they are better than you, aren't they?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 09:03:22 am by TheDarkJay »
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Heron TSG

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2011, 09:04:28 am »

To people who say "don't bring yourself down to their level"...well, that's true, if you want to win you have to go lower.
To bring yourself down to their level is to be as bad as they are. To go lower is to be worse.

Est Sularus Oth Mithas, comrade.
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Est Sularus Oth Mithas
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TheDarkJay

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2011, 09:06:42 am »

So long as you come out on top, you are better than them. Ever heard of being vindicated by history? Then again I don't put much stock in honour. In fact, I think it's a silly concept.
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Darvi

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2011, 09:07:50 am »

Sure. And then they go whining to whatever authority there is around. And since they're being unreasonable as ever, you're the bad guy at the end.
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TheDarkJay

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2011, 09:12:07 am »

So lie and cheat until their unreasonable-nature works for you :) Figure out a way to make it work for you.
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Darvi

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2011, 09:13:04 am »

I may be a hardcore cheater but lying's beneath even me :v
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TheDarkJay

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Re: Bullying
« Reply #74 on: April 22, 2011, 09:14:09 am »

It you aren't willing to lie, then you will have a very horrible life. Not childhood, not adolescence, life. Lies are what make the world go round.

I probably sound like I'm being harsh, because I am. It's the only way to advocate temporary amorality ^^ Any man who tries to be good all the time is bound to come to ruin among the great number who are not good. - Machiavelli
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 09:18:32 am by TheDarkJay »
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