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[ein]

I've only ever responded mentally.
Natural ability to overwhelm, creep out, and incapacitate people.
And it seems to make people stop after about one attempt.

[fqllve]

Yeah, it would be quite different in your context.  Such things are generally seen as acceptable to do to guys among stupid people.  There has to be full groping for something to be considered inappropriate touching on a male.

Which is pretty fucked up because there is really no way to justify that as okay beyond blatant sexism. It is painful and it is most definitely violating. If some boys want to play that game, fine, it's their body, but some of us do not even like to shake hands. In my eyes that is 'do not pass go' sexual harassment.

But really that is a long involved rant for another thread.

[Realmfighter]

I can never remember being Bullied, although my Memory is shit and I tend to Overlook(Ignore? Disregard?) most things considered bad that happen to me.

I can tell you that my circle of friends are all just terrible terrible sexists who think that its okay to hit me because I am a guy. But Meh. I find it amusing.

[Vector]

Which is pretty fucked up because there is really no way to justify that as okay beyond blatant sexism.

*Sigh*

It's response sexism, sort of.

Previously: Buggin' dudes sort of okay, buggin' women super-okay and laudable.
Then: Buggin' dudes sort of okay, buggin' women starting to not be okay.
Now: Buggin' dudes sort of okay, buggin' women Officially not okay but really still mostly okay.

It's just stupid is what it is.

[fqllve]

I dunno. I don't really see it as tied to female sexism, I think it's just tied into cultural ideas of boyhood. Sometimes it feels like it's even expected of them.

Anyway, don't sigh! I wasn't trying to do the whole "look! look! feminists are wrong!" thing. It just really irks me that stuff like that is condoned and even laughed at when it's extremely painful and humiliating.

[Vector]

I dunno. I don't really see it as tied to female sexism, I think it's just tied into cultural ideas of boyhood. Sometimes it feels like it's even expected of them.

See, the problem is partially that a lot of this (pretty much all of this) is tied to misogyny; "what makes a man" is basically defined in diametric opposition to "what makes a woman."  That is obviously not to trivialize the problem to men (really, seriously not--I used to rough house with boys, and have been kneed/gutpunched/whatever myself.  It was unpleasant, and I imagine it would have been a lot more unpleasant if I'd had testicles), but to say "hey, look!  Solve the misogyny problem and you probably won't have the fucked-up male homosocial problems, either!"

I won't bore you and explain how, but if anyone's interested I can PM the names of a series of essays/books that explain how this all works.

[Earthquake Damage]

At face value, I don't see as much relation to misogyny as I do the broader problems of schadenfreude and sadism.  I'm not sure I can even call those "problems", really, as they're fairly natural (if not in-born then cultural norms), at least in some contexts.

Clarification:  It's hard to call it a "problem" when it's functioning as "intended" or "desired", even if it's only "desired" in some contexts while reviled in others.  Such behavior probably wouldn't receive a positive response (i.e. laughter and other forms of encouragement) from peers if it were universally deplored.

[fqllve]

See, the problem is partially that a lot of this (pretty much all of this) is tied to misogyny; "what makes a man" is basically defined in diametric opposition to "what makes a woman."  That is obviously not to trivialize the problem to men (really, seriously not--I used to rough house with boys, and have been kneed/gutpunched/whatever myself.  It was unpleasant, and I imagine it would have been a lot more unpleasant if I'd had testicles), but to say "hey, look!  Solve the misogyny problem and you probably won't have the fucked-up male homosocial problems, either!"

I won't bore you and explain how, but if anyone's interested I can PM the names of a series of essays/books that explain how this all works.

I think that's a valid approach, and misogyny is a serious problem, more serious than misandry, that I definitely want solved, but it is against my nature to not directly address problems that I see. I have to attack sexism where I see it, I would feel wrong if I didn't. I would disagree that masculinity is defined as the opposite of femininity, though, but rather that both are defined as the opposite of the other. Which is splitting hairs, I know, but I think it's an important distinction that acknowledges the lack of primacy in the duality.

But anyway, I would be interested to get that list. Also, we are totally derailing this now, hehe.

[SalmonGod]

Sexism is a wierd issue.  I've seen all ranges of it from different people and different levels of acceptance for different kinds in different social circles.  It's really hard for me at this point to see any one kind as the norm.  The major trends I see are that men get away with abuse of women except in front of other men (even if those other men abuse women themselves), men get away with abuse of men lower on the social ladder, and women get away with abuse of men almost whenever they want.

And women abuse each other plenty too but that's something I hardly understand at all.  I kinda started to mention it on another thread once.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I've only ever have to deal with what I'd call "bullying" once or twice through the years, but ever since second grade the majority of my classmates either hate me openly or act in a manner such that they appear to like me, when in reality they hate me. This, of course, leads to a constant stream of minor annoyances (chair kicking, throwing things, badly attempting to steal from me, backpack inversion, badly thought out insults, "Imnottouchingyou", ect.). I swear, it's like I carry around some kind of goddamn Hate Plague.

Still, it's gotten better. From then to now I've gotten to the point where almost everyone just ignores me instead of messing with me. Now the only thing is that my near-constant silence seems to scare the hell out of them, as if they have some sort of horrific fear of not being able to discern my thoughts. This has the side effect of these same people giving me cult leaderish attention whenever I do say somthing.

[Vector]

There's a few different schools of thought, actually: femininity defined as "that which isn't masculine," masculine defined as "that which isn't feminine," and masculinity and femininity both defined in opposition to each other.  I don't quite know which I believe yet, but... yeah, that was sloppy speaking.

The schadenfreude and sadism thing... well, I'll just say that in any society where "feminine" is defined as "weak and peaceful" and masculine is defined as "fighting things," proving your femininity will remain strongly related to sandwich abilities and proving masculinity will continue to be related to beating people up and molesting them.  I mean, schadenfreude and sadism are surely not only male pursuits, but in general they are not related to "feminine" behavior, and they are not rewarded in females as they (often) are in men.  So, in a sense: yes, those things are intimately related to sexism and this entire messed-up social structure.

Furthermore, women bullying women results in an increased rank for the woman, and thus is often punished by both the female group (through the principle of "crab bucket") and the male dominant group (because it's not good to have someone threatening the upper structure).  Male bullying is just dudes fighting within the power structure, and considered normal in dominance.  Then, if you've got a gay guy, they can tend to be rejected by both women and men, because men are kicking out the dangerous "feminine" element to prove their dominance over feminine traits, and women are uncomfortable dealing with what is still seen as a member of the "oppressor" class.

Well, anyway... I guess this is just me being weird again, and I can send out the PM at some point (hopefully in the near future).

men get away with abuse of women except in front of other men

You're a bigger dude if you can maintain power without gaining it by beating the shit out of a woman.  It's like "Look, I'm better than you--I don't even have to beat the crap out of her to prove that I'm dominant!"  Kind of like the "be the bigger man and apologize" thing.

men get away with abuse of men lower on the social ladder

You need to abuse other men to gain more power within the male social structure itself.

women get away with abuse of men almost whenever they want.

What kind of man are you if you can't take someone weaker trying to usurp you?  Man, you'd better be made of stronger stuff than that.  You're stronger if that stuff doesn't faze you.

And women abuse each other plenty too but that's something I hardly understand at all.

Easy.  The primary way to gain power is to align yourself with men.  First way to align yourself with men?  Abuse women.  So you get plenty of women abusing women in an attempt to gain male social power.  Not that it works, hoho.

[fqllve]

women get away with abuse of men almost whenever they want.

What kind of man are you if you can't take someone weaker trying to usurp you?  Man, you'd better be made of stronger stuff than that.  You're stronger if that stuff doesn't faze you.

Jeez Vector, no need to be so harsh.

(hehehe)

And women abuse each other plenty too but that's something I hardly understand at all.

Easy.  The primary way to gain power is to align yourself with men.  First way to align yourself with men?  Abuse women.  So you get plenty of women abusing women in an attempt to gain male social power.  Not that it works, hoho.

That is so fucked up I am incapable of deciding whether it is true or not. I get the feeling it is, though.

[Earthquake Damage]

Your interpretation/approach to SalmonGod's statements seem a bit weak.  I suspect an unbiased listener could be just as convinced of the opposite, given the right spin.  But I suppose that unbiased part's the trouble, social attitudes and presuppositions being what they are.

There's a few different schools of thought, actually: femininity defined as "that which isn't masculine," masculine defined as "that which isn't feminine," and masculinity and femininity both defined in opposition to each other.  I don't quite know which I believe yet, but... yeah, that was sloppy speaking.

Are those really distinguishable?  If not, are they really different?  They're social constructs, after all.  It's not like light vs dark, where we've identified a real physical difference.

[Vector]

What opposite--that men abuse men in order to give the lower dudes more social power?  Or that women abuse women in order to make themselves less powerful?  That men don't abuse women around other men in order to prove that they are weak and powerless?

Wow, that unbiased listener had better be really fucking stupid.


And yeah, those things are different.  It's different to be

a. The thing that no one wants to be, because it sucks that much, so they define "good" as an opposite to you.
b. The thing that is defined as bad because it isn't the good thing.
c. The thing that is bad because that was what was left over after we decided what was good, but we also said that that was bad, and good was what was left over after we'd decided.

I'm sure you can see the difference between at least a. and b.

[fqllve]

Are those really distinguishable?  If not, are they really different?  They're social constructs, after all.  It's not like light vs dark, where we've identified a real physical difference.

They are most definitely distinguishable. It's all about which idea is primary. If one is primary then it is what is natural and would suggest that it isn't only a social construct. If both are defined as opposition then both are just social constructs and changes in one will correspond to changes in the other.

Also, if one is defined as primary then that implies superiority. Easy example: Genesis 2.

And your explanation makes me wince, Vector.