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[Lord_Phoenix]

You also need some torture rooms, according to the lore from Knights of the Nine.


But thinking about it, there is a major and fortress-breaking flaw here.

Ayleids were ELVES. You can't just go around and construct a pansy elf place in Dwarf Fortress, can you?

Go with the Dwemer ruins of Morrowind. While Dwemer were technically also elves according to the lore (*cries*), they were at least known as "Dwarves" in Cyrodiil.

The place Tolkein/D&D style elves (tall, pointy ears, likes trees) are drawn from, are the same place that Tolkein/D&D dwarves and D&D drow are drawn from:  The Norse Alfar.  There were 3 types of Alfr, Ljosalfar, Dokkalfar, and Svartalfar.  Ljosalfar, or light elves, were messengers of the gods and beings of the sky.  The Dokkalfar, or dark elves, lived in hills.  The Svartalfar, or Black Elves, were short and lived deep underground, where they mined metal and were great smiths and the like.  So, dwarves are elves.

Or something like that.

[Hyndis]

The place Tolkein/D&D style elves (tall, pointy ears, likes trees) are drawn from, are the same place that Tolkein/D&D dwarves and D&D drow are drawn from:  The Norse Alfar.  There were 3 types of Alfr, Ljosalfar, Dokkalfar, and Svartalfar.  Ljosalfar, or light elves, were messengers of the gods and beings of the sky.  The Dokkalfar, or dark elves, lived in hills.  The Svartalfar, or Black Elves, were short and lived deep underground, where they mined metal and were great smiths and the like.  So, dwarves are elves.

Or something like that.

Elves aren't bad just for being elves, its the whole hippy/nature thing that can be annoying.

Drow are just taller, beardless dwarves but otherwise behave almost the same.

[Lytha]

The place Tolkein/D&D style elves (tall, pointy ears, likes trees) are drawn from, are the same place that Tolkein/D&D dwarves and D&D drow are drawn from:  The Norse Alfar.  There were 3 types of Alfr, Ljosalfar, Dokkalfar, and Svartalfar.  Ljosalfar, or light elves, were messengers of the gods and beings of the sky.  The Dokkalfar, or dark elves, lived in hills.  The Svartalfar, or Black Elves, were short and lived deep underground, where they mined metal and were great smiths and the like.  So, dwarves are elves.

Or something like that.

Tolkien's dwarves are different. Check your Silmarillion, chapter 2 ("Of Aulė and Yavanna"), and you see that Aulė, one of the subgods created them, while Ilśvatar, the god at the top of the pyramid created elves and men.

Aulė created incidentally the "seven fathers of the dwarves", in a hall under the mountains of Middle-Earth. If we wouldn't embark above ground, this sounds strangely familiar.

[Lord_Phoenix]

Elves aren't bad just for being elves, its the whole hippy/nature thing that can be annoying.

Drow are just taller, beardless dwarves but otherwise behave almost the same.

The whole living in woods thing comes from the merger of the Norse Ljosalfar with the Celtic Brownies/Elves and their ilk.  So, instead of a tall, fairskinned/haired flying messenger of the gods who lives in the sky or a 3 inch tall trickster/archer who lives in the woods and is very protective of them, you get a tall fairskinned/haired archer who lives in the woods and is very protective of them.

Tolkien's dwarves are different. Check your Silmarillion, chapter 2 ("Of Aulė and Yavanna"), and you see that Aulė, one of the subgods created them, while Ilśvatar, the god at the top of the pyramid created elves and men.

Aulė created incidentally the "seven fathers of the dwarves", in a hall under the mountains of Middle-Earth. If we wouldn't embark above ground, this sounds strangely familiar.

I don't see how that changes anything about where they were drawn from or how that makes them in anyway really different.

[Lytha]

I don't see how that changes anything about where they were drawn from.

No? You took Tolkien as an example for "dwarves are elves", which is clearly contradicting the Tolkienish lore.

In his lore, the tinkering elves would probably be the Noldor, called "the deep elves".... matching the Cyrodiil's Dwemer.

But Tolkienish dwarves aren't elves.

[Hyndis]

The whole living in woods thing comes from the merger of the Norse Ljosalfar with the Celtic Brownies/Elves and their ilk.  So, instead of a tall, fairskinned/haired flying messenger of the gods who lives in the sky or a 3 inch tall trickster/archer who lives in the woods and is very protective of them, you get a tall fairskinned/haried archer who lives in the woods and is very protective of them.

Wood elves can be awesome. Tribal, savage, questionably cannibalistic.

Though DF elves are much like that, they're laughably inept. Sure, they're very protective of their forest, but they're entirely helplessly when they attack with their wooden swords.

When elves attack its just a training exercise for my military. I send out all of the newbies to go spar with the elves. Its not like their wooden weapons can get through steel armor, and so even a completely unskilled dwarf is safe from harm.

[Hyndis]

I don't see how that changes anything about where they were drawn from.

No? You took Tolkien as an example for "dwarves are elves", which is clearly contradicting the Tolkienish lore.

In his lore, the tinkering elves would probably be the Noldor, called "the deep elves".

Tolkienish dwarves aren't elves.

Orcs are also elves.

[Lord_Phoenix]

No? You took Tolkien as an example for "dwarves are elves", which is clearly contradicting the Tolkienish lore.

In his lore, the tinkering elves would probably be the Noldor, called "the deep elves".... matching the Cyrodiil's Dwemer.

But Tolkienish dwarves aren't elves.

No, I didn't.  I used the Norse Alfar, which is where Tolkein dwarves were drawn from, as an example for "dwarves are elves".

[Lytha]

No, I didn't.  I used the Norse Alfar, which is where Tolkein dwarves were drawn from, as an example for "dwarves are elves".

It appears that you are wrong. Tolkien drew the idea for the dwarves from the dvergr, not the įlfar  With dvergr, we're looking at the descendants of maggots that lived in the earth here. They shy the sunlight (perhaps turn into stone when exposed to it), they are smithes and they live subterranean.

Įlfar are something different than that.

Once again, Tolkienish dwarves aren't elves. And neither were the dvergr.

[Lord_Phoenix]

No, I didn't.  I used the Norse Alfar, which is where Tolkein dwarves were drawn from, as an example for "dwarves are elves".

It appears that you are wrong. Tolkien drew the idea for the dwarves from the dvergr, not the įlfar  With dvergr, we're looking at the descendants of maggots that lived in the earth here. They shy the sunlight (perhaps turn into stone when exposed to it), they are smithes and they live subterranean.

Įlfar are something different than that.

Once again, Tolkienish dwarves aren't elves. And neither were the dvergr.

Ahem, from wikipedia on Dvergr:  "In addition, scholars have noted that the Svartįlfar, who, like dwarfs, are said in the Prose Edda to dwell in Svartįlfaheimr, appear to be the same beings as dwarfs(dvergr)."  They are the same thing.   Therefore, I am right once more.  Svartalfar are short, miners and smiths, greedy and materialistic, and have been said in some instances to either have no women or really ugly women, preferring (or forced to) snatch children to raise as their own, rather than actually reproduce with one of their own kind.  The child snatching part was left out of the Tolkein dwarves, but the women thing lived on.

[Oliolli]

I don't see how that changes anything about where they were drawn from.

No? You took Tolkien as an example for "dwarves are elves", which is clearly contradicting the Tolkienish lore.

In his lore, the tinkering elves would probably be the Noldor, called "the deep elves".

Tolkienish dwarves aren't elves.

Orcs are also elves.

Not only the Tolkienish orcs Orcs, or to be more precise, the orsimer from The Elder Scrolls are also elves, even if they are "Corrupt elves".

On a sidenote, I cant seem to find any other place in the internet where a question for tips on building a set of ruins could transform into a debate on the relations of elves and dwarves.

[Teneb]

[REDACTED]

[Lytha]

Ahem, from wikipedia on Dvergr:  "In addition, scholars have noted that the Svartįlfar, who, like dwarfs, are said in the Prose Edda to dwell in Svartįlfaheimr, appear to be the same beings as dwarfs(dvergr)."  They are the same thing.   Therefore, I am right once more.  Svartalfar are short, miners and smiths, greedy and materialistic, and have been said in some instances to either have no women or really ugly women, preferring (or forced to) snatch children to raise as their own, rather than actually reproduce with one of their own kind.  The child snatching part was left out of the Tolkein dwarves, but the women thing lived on.

Yes, I give you this point.

However, were the Svartįlfar elves? Or were dvergr and įlfar both nature spirits, but each of them embodying something completely different? One being the embodiment of light and water; the other thought to be the ugly descendant of maggots, digging in the deep and smithing artifacts for the gods.

I think if you say that dvergr were įlfar, then you are doing something similar to the following:

"a cat is an animal."
"a dog is an animal, too."
"therefore, cats are dogs."


It is actually even more interesting than that. Svartįlfar is a conjuncted word, "svart" definitely meaning "black" (cp. german "schwarz", english "swarthy"), while "įlfar" would be derived from indogerman "albh" or latin "alba". This means "white" or "light".

So a svartįlfar is a contradiction in itself. A black light.

Awesome! Thank you  for making me look all of this up, I find stuff like this fascinating.

(but it's Tolkien, not Tolkein. Ie vs Ei misspellings irk me.)

[Lord_Phoenix]

Yes, I give you this point.

However, were the Svartįlfar elves? Or were dvergr and įlfar both nature spirits, but each of them embodying something completely different? One being the embodiment of light and water; the other thought to be the ugly descendant of maggots, digging in the deep and smithing artifacts for the gods.

I think if you say that dvergr were įlfar, then you are doing something similar to the following:

"a cat is an animal."
"a dog is an animal, too."
"therefore, cats are dogs."

Remember, alfar are not the embodiment of light.  Ljosalfar are.  There are also Dokkalfar, who are dark haired and swarthy and live near the surface of the earth in hills and said to be tricksters of a sort, moving things around and losing things for you and the like if you don't pay proper respect to them (which some people today still do).  And, of course, Svartalfar.  All three are elves, it's right there in their name: "Alfar".

It's more like:

Some dogs are terriers.
Some dogs are great danes, too.
Therefore, terriers and great danes are both dogs.

Most of this you'd have to do some digging to pull up on the net, or get some books, the wikipedia pages are practically stubs on the subject.

As for the Alfar/Alba/Albh relation, I think that when it came over to their language, it took on a more mystical connotation than simply light or white, like "white magic" or "holy" something.  So, Svartalfar would be something like "holy black beings".   It's hard to say without knowing the exact connotations which a word like "light" or "white" had in the culture at the time.  An example of how culture changes the way a word is viewed would be the color red.  Here, it's often associated with anger and blood, but in Chinese culture it's associated with happiness.  Black is associated with death/night/evil/etc. here, but in China it's associated with water and the sky and, to a much lesser extent than here, death (White is usually much more associated with death and mourning in Chinese culture).

[Lord_Phoenix]

Regardless of the connotation which the word carried in their culture, they obviously have some vein in common in the cultural view for the Norse to lump them into the same class of creatures, much the same way we lump Great Danes and Terriers into Dogs, rather than each their own separate species, as despite their great apparent physical differences, they are still physiologically identical, and are genetically identical to each other (as well as to Wolves).  Now, what this particular commonality is (and it's certainly not physiology nor genetics), you'd probably have to ask a long dead Norseman or someone else much more knowledgeable about the subject about that.

It's similar to how in Gaelic/Celtic you have the Faire Folk, who are a much larger and diverse group than just what we would think of as Fairies, and includes Celtic/Gaelic elves amongst others.