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[NW_Kohaku]

I find it kind of gut-wrenching that you're comparing sexual orientation to racism and pedophilia. What on Earth makes you think that is remotely appropriate?

Ditto.  I don't understand why whenever someone mentions homosexuality, the first thought some people have is AIDS, Bestiality, Pedophilia, and the like.  Theres nothing at all similar in these things.  In the slightest 

Who else here facepalms whenever they hear the anti-gay-marriage argument "Well if they let gays marry, then next we'll be letting people marry their cats"    Yeah, because gays are like animals, right? Makes complete sense... if you're retarded.

Remember, you two, you don't like it when knaveofstaves is questioning whether you are carrying an "invisible knapsack" or saying things that make you defensive about not being a homophobe, as well.  Don't turn around and do the same thing to the next guy.

[Urist McAddict]

Man, i love being misinterpreted...
Well, let me get my bat to strike some misdirections...

[I find it kind of gut-wrenching that you're comparing sexual orientation to racism and pedophilia. What on Earth makes you think that is remotely appropriate?]

That was me kidding, it's an internet principle that every forum discussion may end up being confronted with Hitler if any of the parts are too strongly defensive about their opinion =P
Don't stump your toes 'cause of me.

[I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make here. That dwarves wouldn't be exclusively straight or gay? Because that's an option too. I have no clue what you mean by the "100% straight shirt" comment.]

That was another shot in the dark, i'm referring to the "Gay and Proud" and such things sometimes i see ppl wearing, it's just like someone here said, the relationship would be the only clue to this fact, they don't need to be separated into a trait or something, or be in the closet, they just hang out with whoever they want, in society, there's no need to keep anouncing your sexual orientation, you do what you want, intimate relationships are just that... INTIMATE!

[I never said that every single cultural and social aspect of the real world be incorporated into Dwarf Fortress.]

But you know when the social/culture arc starts, ppl will say some minority is not being representated, and if you want to add realism to a game solely on adding the "gay option", you would have to portray it completely, that's what the Hammerer is for... Someday in the future, the law won't be just beatings, chains and such, many kinds of crimes should be there, so you'd get the most immersive game ever, you should shun who does that, F.E. Orcs are known in some fantasy worlds to rape the conquered, that's just it... What about xenophobia? Many races look down upon other, that's racism to you and it's been there, in every fantasy book you ever read...

[When has this ever, ever been true in real life?]

Well, not legally, but just look at some middle eastern cultures, they do nasty things to gays, in medieval times, gay relationships were "criminal" because that would offend the church... Really? It was there mostly because the kings needed their freaking slaves, more hands on labor meant they'd be greater than others, i don't think it's nice, but that happens on many cultures, just they don't label... OH! By the way, some US states actually prohibit gay sex... Look for a site, named stupid laws or something like it...

[Yes, because they are capable of doing so, and people should strive to be socially conscious in all aspects of their life and work. It isn't right to dodge the question of homosexuality simply because some people are ignorant or intolerant about it. Or I should say, it is meaningful and worthwhile to respond to that question despite people's intolerance. The social situation concerning sexual orientation must get better, and part of it getting better is people stepping up to the plate and acknowledging the existence of various sexual orientations without treating them as something wacky or special, rather just as another aspect of people like any other. I don't necessarily think that Dwarf Fortress has some moral imperative to do this, just that it would be a very good thing if it could.]

I'll have a quick one there, you just invalidated one of your points, ppl also have to know MANY other things happen in society, and i like how you end this comment, that's just what i'm saying... Sure, you saved a lotta letters =P

[And again, a big part of my argument here is just that normalizing non-heteronormative behavior is a positive thing. It's wrong, in my opinion, for casual entertainment to apparently avoid non-heterosexuals unless they're camp gay or it's some major aspect of their personality (more than being heterosexual would be). I want to see a brainless action movie where the hero just happens to be a gay guy, not because it would be trying to hammer home a message, but because we need more examples of sexual orientation being treated realistically and naturally without it having to be some core defining aspect of the character (again, any more than heterosexuality normally is). Speaking about society in general, we need more cultural understanding of the fact that gay people aren't magically different from the rest of us.]

There, that's pretty much what i wanted to hear, being gay or anything else would be something that just happens, i don't think we need gay marriage, i'm pro gay rights and all but i don't really see a point... They can be gay just as much as they can be straight, no problem in there, no need to shout out loud... Being gay should be as normal as being short or tall, and i said before, putting sexual orientation as a focus rather than a fact is just overrating a game that's about FUN, in all polyssemic ways of fun, survival is the focus, while you're kept alive, funny or interesting things happen, that's the great thing about DF, i'd really LMAO if i saw Dorf farmers going a strike or mason's refusing to work for some disrespectful noble... That's the thing, as a fantasy universe sim, it's the journey that counts...
I am silly, i sometimes like so much of some of my dorfs that i feel bad when i make a mistake and some of them get seriously beaten and such... That's what a game must be, you HAVE to feel connected to your characters...

[It's kind of disheartening that I have to be considered an "activist" just because I don't think DF should refrain from including non-heteronormative sexuality simply because some ignorant people might be offended by it, or because some 13-year-olds might find it distasteful. I simply think that's a bad reason to exclude something that would otherwise be included, particularly when it's an issue with important social ramifications.]

Never said a name, i was just pointing out the obvious, if ppl get too passionate on their point, they may just leave their reason behind, and don't worry, i'm too old to be sweating over an online discussion =)
Keeping on my schedule...

[I assume you mean that the only reason people care about gay relationships is religion. So your point is that the only way they can have any effect is by being culturally allowed or forbidden. But Spartans were encouraged to have gay relationships so that they'd fight better : that's a pretty interesting way for homosexuality to be important. It makes your soldiers better fighters, but makes pregnancies less frequent so you that might have to rely on immigration.]

I don't give a rat's furry buttock about who's on top of who for instance. I meant what i said, i was just saying that gay marriage wasn't that important back then, they did what they did, everyone knew, nobody gave a damn about it, it was common as it's turning nowadays and THAT's what DF should do, show it as just a fact, no need for much noise... Spartans did it because if a soldier loved the shield next to them as much as they'd to a lover, they were surely going to fight their hearts out to prevent them from dieing, not because they'd be better fighters, just care more about the others...

[You're not the one deciding what the focus of the game is. Combat got most of the attention so far, but ultimately Dwarf Fortress is a fantasy universe simulator, and relationships are a very big part of this. You don't give a crap if the goblin you just killed was gay. Okay. But if some king's wife turns out to be, it might destroy an empire.]

Again, the lack of emoticons took my joke from me... I was not defining the focus of the game, but definitely, sexual orientation would never ruin an empire, if the Queen likes girls and married the king, there can be more to it, but surely, human history is filled with cases of gays that did what they had to do without giving up their liking... That would make things more interesting? Sure, but definitely the world wouldn't stop just because they don't know where you like to swing your bat...

[Why not ? You're free to kill goblins however you like, that's not the goal of the mechanics Toady coded, merely things you're free to do. I'm sure homosexuality done in a tasteful way would draw a lot of positive attention on the game.]

Still, i think DF is not edutainment, i agree that it would be positive, but that's beside the point, games are to be fun, not some kind of world changing platform... As Jeoshua said, "This is the biggest thing.  Once we have lovers/friends/family hanging out together, we can then ask the question "what gender is that lover" and the rest should flow naturally." No need to point out, you should have the option to investigate or not... For example, some ppl just like the gobbo shredding, some like to see more, i read many profiles in my fortresses, but that's just me, some ppl might avoid seeing those if you put the explicit warning, what's the next step? A warning for megabeasts and another for "The Gay Hammerer has arrived"? Saying ppl is ignorant for not wanting to see is something that i do not like, everyone's entitled to an opinion, my parents are ultra conservative about it, i'm not, i'm straight and i had (because she moved and we lost contact) a lesbian friend and i hang out with her and a bi friend of hers... Didn't matter to me, they're normal ppl like everyone else, they just like to eat indian or japanese food, just like that... No magical power, no newly acquired fashion taste...

The last one
[DF has always been great because of the stories you get out of it ; as a game to be beaten it's not bad, but I'm pretty sure Toady wants it to be more than that. If you think homosexuality wouldn't fit into the stories you want to see unfold, then you're free to. But a simulation so deep than who bones who can ultimately win or lose a war, I'd personally find that pretty fun.]

Never said it, never meant it... I never said i'm against gays, i just think that sorting out who's gay and who's not is just a matter of looking who he loves, there. DONE! No need to say "He is flamboyantly gay", just leave the little dorf to check the beards around...

There, i hope some of you understand a little more of my chaotic speech... I know i'm not gonna have everyone's opinion, but i just want to speak up and rest my five cents in there... No rage or stark raving madness was caused by your dearest opinions.
Thanks for the contribution

[NW_Kohaku]

Still, i think DF is not edutainment, i agree that it would be positive, but that's beside the point, games are to be fun, not some kind of world changing platform...

Actually, one of the things I really love about DF is its ability to inspire learning.

I've learned a great amount about geology because of DF.  I learned about ceramics and glazes and chemical reactions related to the refining of various metals and their oxides and sulfides. 

In writing the Improved Farming thread, I've learned a huge number of things about agriculture I never would have had an interest in otherwise. 

I put up a bat house outside to try to get bats to come in and act as a natural pesticide after looking up ways to control insect populations.

I learned about beekeeping thanks to Buzzin Beard's thread.

I now scour websites or History Channel documentaries for things that might make for useful new in-game chemistry material.

DF is a wonderful springboard for learning, and the trend should really be encouraged.

[Reelyanoob]

If two individuals like each other, are alone together, and are of a different gender, there should be a chance they have sex.  And then a chance, not a certainty, that they get pregnant.  Happy thoughs for the individuals involved.  Marriage should happen when two individuals like each other enough to do so, and it should have nothing to do with children and pregnancy, requiring neither either before or after.

I was thinking how this would gel with a busy fortress, and my idea is that if one member of a couple is "On Break" then the other can decide to take their own break early, so they spend that time together, and you wouldn't have to micro-manage time off to get babies.

in medieval times, gay relationships were "criminal" because that would offend the church...

Not just medieval times, or in third world countries. Tasmania only officially legalized homosexual relations in 1999 or something, they were the laughingstock of Australia (well, in this one aspect), though the law hadn't been enforced for a long time.

Also, consider the "treatments" handed out in th USA and I'm sure others in the 20th century. Force WAS used.

e.g. not necessarily related to homosexuality, but I read of a man in Alabama put into an asylum as a sex-addict in 1943 because he'd told someone he had sex with his wife 4-5 times a week. This was seen as far above the "norm" of 2-3 times a week, and he was detained presumably to spare his poor wife (as no woman would want that much sex, "obviously")

---

Back to the main topic, I think sims 2 is a fair model of how to incorporate same-sex relations in a game. e.g there were characters who would get pink love-hearts floating up from their heads, while viewing same-sex people. A pretty obvious clue that such options could be explored. All characters were pretty much pan-sexual and could be coaxed into any liason you liked, though they started with or could develop preferences. All this was free to ignore too.

Jack Thompson, on his anti-Sims 2 "pedophile" witch-hunt (check google) even so much as got a hint that this existed leading me to imagine this conversation between two Sims 2 players :-

"Jack Thompson says there's Pedophiles in Sims 2!"
"Really?? How ridiculous! Should we tell him about the lesbians?"
"Shhh..."

Jack Thompson never even twigged to the existence of the very popular unofficial "Teen Woohoo" and "Teen Pregnancy" mods which exists for every Sims version ever made (EDIT: not sims 1 because there was no aging or teens), and might have given him some plausible ammo for his "pedo" claims, which is funny considering his main argument was that downloading the blur-removal hack for naked sims would allow us to see fully-formed penises and labia on children. (Spoiler: There are no penises in Sims 2)

If that's the best the crusaders can do against the biggest selling game ever, where they just had to google-check their claims to find a dozen mods to back up their theory (or play the game even once), then, catergorically DF has nothing to fear from this type of person.

[Cyx]

So I did misunterstand you before ! It actually looks like we want almost the same thing. Or at least, I wouldn't mind if things were done your way. But I still think it might be interesting to make it a cultural thing.

[Jeoshua]

Actually, for the record, I only brought that rediculous statement up because it didn't seem like anyone was going to, and I wanted to disagree with it

[NW_Kohaku]

Technically, the main argument isn't that we shouldn't have alternate sexualities in the game because of (im)moral crusaders, but how it should be done.

Regardless, Jack Thompson is known as an accidental hero of the gaming culture, because his arguments were so widely publicized and ridiculous that they actually served as a public mockery of the entire notion of the "corruption of the youth" that console and computer gaming were supposedly performing.

Again, I'll point to Bioware as a company that lets you play as gay adventurers in almost all of their games... and nobody really cares. 

The games just assume you're bisexual until you tell it otherwise. 

In Fortress Mode, sexual orientation could just be a handful of traits like "... She needs alcohol to get through the working day.  She is romantically interested in men and highly attracted to women of her species, but not romantically attracted to any other species."

Adventure mode should just not set your adventurer's sexuality at all, and let you decide it by your own actions, unless some people really do want to have that sort of thing randomly rolled for them, and want to abide by it in RP.

[Aquillion]

Like a lot of things, sexuality touches on a whole host of other issues that would have to be considered.  It's not simply a matter of tagging characters as gay / straight / bisexual / transgender and then indicating how accepting a culture is of non-straight relationships or whatever...

Historically, different cultures had completely different views on sexuality in ways that went beyond simply accept / not-accept.  For instance, many ancient Western cultures had no rigid concept of 'sexual orientation' as an identity -- they knew about homosexual behavior, and had opinions on it, but, for example, it's not at all clear that the ancient Greeks would categorize (or recognize) someone as 'gay' the way we would now.  They'd recognize that someone likes certain kinds of sex more than others, but they wouldn't consider that a rigid gender identity the way we do.

Other cultures seem to have recognized gender identity to an extent, but not necessarily through the same categories or rules we do -- many recognized a sort of a 'third gender' that may have covered both gay and transgender, lumping them together.

In others, homosexuality among men was perfectly fine, but you were still expected to marry a woman and produce children -- it was all right for a male to be attracted to males, but it was looked down on for a male to not be attracted to females (though not in anywhere near as strong terms as homosexuality gets condemned by religious conservatives today or in the recent past-- something people might make fun of you behind your back for, but not something that could ruin your political career or anything.)  If you're in a culture where many important things are passed down through inheritance, in particular, then marrying someone of the opposite gender would be basically required.  You wouldn't necessarily be required to be attracted to them and, depending on where you were, people might not care if you spend all your time with people of your own gender in your free time, but producing offspring was necessary.

(Remember, as an aside, that modern attitudes towards reproduction are dramatically different than what they were in the ancient world -- the threat of overpopulation is totally new, say, and the modern first-world reductions in disease, famine, and in death by childbirth means that it's much easier to ensure that your culture survives without constantly pumping out babies -- bearing children is much more optional now than it once was.  There were cultures where 'produce more children or our family line dies out' was a deadly serious consideration, to the point of starting wars, leading to mass-abductions, and so on.  And at one point in much of the world, children were basically vital to the economy -- your children worked the fields and supported you in your old age; if you didn't have children, you would die because there were no social services or anything like that.)

And sometimes it gets stranger in ways that we don't have any direct parallel to.  The ancient Greeks and Romans had relationships between adult males and young boys, but it was assumed that the adult would be penetrating their younger partner -- for an adult to be the receiving partner was considered scandalous not so much in a sexual sense, but because it upset established roles.

And some of these things aren't totally certain -- archeological evidence on sexual behaviors in many societies is scant.

But the real point is, could DF model the detailed sexual behaviors of various societies?  The issue goes way beyond gay / straight / transgender / bisexual; you have to consider whether each culture recognizes each of those as an identity, only acknowledges it as a behavior, or refuses to acknowledge that it happens at all (even some people in modern-day societies refuse to recognize bisexuality; there are countries where leaders insist that homosexuality doesn't happen in their country at all, etc); whether they assign additional cultural meanings to the roles in sex and to the various orientations (both as an identity if they recognize those, and as individual acts when they don't -- this matters because eg. some cultures might bar you from their priesthood if they even suspect that you're gay, while others will tell you that it's fine as long as you don't actually have gay sex)...

And, maybe most importantly, what cultural institutions they have build up around sexual relationships, including whether they have marriage, whether they have gay marriage, whether they allow polygamy / bigamy, divorce, what their age of consent is (and whether they have a formal one, and whether it differs for genders and so forth)...  the list here could get very long and extends eventually into a larger 'cultural institutions for different cultures' thing.

It does feel weird to me to have a large-scale war over gay sex.  However, historically, there have been purges (the Spanish engaged in violent purges of native peoples in South America who engaged in such behavior), and in general, remember that the game is meant to eventually represent small-scale politics too -- cultural sexual issues can play a big role there (e.g. the leader in this nation that loathes homosexuality is gay!  Someone discovers this fact and uses it to blackmail him.)  It's, basically, something good for creating conflict, as well as lending interesting background to the setting.

But I'd want it to be implemented as part of a larger system of cultural identity, since most of the really interesting things that happen around it depend on that and on the different ways various cultures have approached it.  Quickly hacking it in on its own wouldn't yield very much, and could result in weird or hard to believe behavior if every culture reacts to it the same way.

Also, I do have one worry about large-scale cultural differences:  It might be hard to convey to players the randomly-generated features of whatever culture they're dealing with at the moment.  This could result in things happening that make no sense to the player at all -- it doesn't really help them to tell them that there's this big cultural generation system running under the hood; what they see is dwarves or humans acting in ways that seem bizarre to them (and which, if randomly generated, may not map to any culture on earth.)

In the same way that using (relatively) stereotypical dwarves, elves, and humans is better than using randomly generated creatures, because it lets players instantly picture what's going on in their head, it might be better to stick relatively close to stereotypical generic-fantasy 1400s-era Western European cultures and cultural attitudes, in that that way the player will probably have a much more intuitive understanding of what's going on than if cultures randomly end up categorizing some people as a third gender or whatever.

Of course, even an accurate representation of 1400-era Western European cultures would probably seem alien to most players -- through a glass darkly and all that rot.  But anyway, there's a lot of interesting possibilities here, and same gender coupling is only one small part of it.

[G-Flex]

That was another shot in the dark, i'm referring to the "Gay and Proud" and such things sometimes i see ppl wearing, it's just like someone here said, the relationship would be the only clue to this fact, they don't need to be separated into a trait or something, or be in the closet, they just hang out with whoever they want, in society, there's no need to keep anouncing your sexual orientation, you do what you want, intimate relationships are just that... INTIMATE!

I don't really know what you're responding to here. I don't think anyone is suggesting that dwarves have gay pride parades.

OH! By the way, some US states actually prohibit gay sex... Look for a site, named stupid laws or something like it...

This used to be the case, unfortunately, but after a while they stopped going enforced, and they were pretty much wiped out entirely by the US Supreme Court years back.

I'll have a quick one there, you just invalidated one of your points, ppl also have to know MANY other things happen in society, and i like how you end this comment, that's just what i'm saying... Sure, you saved a lotta letters =P

... Which point of mine did I invalidate? I really don't follow you here.

There, that's pretty much what i wanted to hear, being gay or anything else would be something that just happens, i don't think we need gay marriage, i'm pro gay rights and all but i don't really see a point... They can be gay just as much as they can be straight, no problem in there, no need to shout out loud...

What the hell? How is gay marriage "shouting it out loud"? It's the exact same thing as straight marriage. Why the double standard?

Still, i think DF is not edutainment, i agree that it would be positive, but that's beside the point, games are to be fun, not some kind of world changing platform...

This is a baseless assertion. Games can be as "world changing" as any other form of art or entertainment. I already mentioned, for instance, how tangential learning occurs with DF, and for that matter, pretty much any game with a simulationist tendency to it is ripe for that. This is a good thing, and can be accomplished without taking away from the "fun"; in my opinion it enhances it.

[Jeoshua]

Hmm... Kohaku, you touched on something there, briefly... and I'd like to go back to it for a second.

Interspecial relationships.

In our world, this is sick, disgusting, and morally repugnant.  That's because we're the only species of Homo on this planet (pun intended ).  But back during the last ice age, this wasn't so.  Neanderthals and Modern Humans lived side-by-side.  Some scientists even thing there may have been some interbreeding, due to Neanderthallic genetic markers that have been found in quite a few people of European stock.  Ozzy Ozborne is a good example.  I'm another.  That's right, I'm part cave-man and I (used to) have the genetic tests to prove it.

In DF, other races are very much the same as this situation.  If you were to break down the races by genetic similarity, all the sentients, with the exception of Gobbos and the Cave civs, would probably be one species of another of Homo.

Elves - Homo Nobilius
Humans - Homo Sapiens
Dwarves - Homo McUristus

So the idea of them finding each other attractive doesn't seem too far off.

Interbreeding might be impossible, or might lead to a "Ligers" and "Tigon" situation.  I'd say the interbred races would be infertile at best.  But love could blossom none-the-less.

[Reelyanoob]

Technically, the main argument isn't that we shouldn't have alternate sexualities in the game because of (im)moral crusaders, but how it should be done.

Jack Thompson was the side-point for me, the main point was to highlight how Sims 2 (and 3) did it. I brought up Thompson as an aside to point out how utterly clueless this moral crusader was at actually noticing anything really "wrong" with that game, which just happens to be the #1 all-time best seller. So any underground game is obviously no going to have any problem on that front.

[Crashmaster]

tl;read only half,

Since dwarves appear by all accounts to procreate only via spores one could imagine that male homosexual sex is constantly ongoing already anyways. So stepping up to a defined homosporetual 'marriage' is not that much of a step. It may be more useful if there were some taxation/ economy benefits. Shared rooms frees up space however they decide to pair up.

[Cespinarve]

I know this subject has a lot of threads about it (this was mainly about the samesex marriages, since thats where i started) deep in the archive, some i have even posted myself in and some had me convinced that the way it is now is indeed the best course of action.

I think some of the most often said reasoning NOT to have this in the game at all would be the "its too much taboo to have in a (this?) game"
that combined with the "it does not matter a big deal, why change the code?"

personally, i find the fact that dwarf fortress is slowly turning into a cultural simulator a sign that these kind of things need to be implemented in some form

be it a sull solid percentage is gay or whatever, to an even duller "everyone is 50/50 bi"

or to a more exiting "its random for every dwarf/elf/we to fall in love with a same sex partner, and different cultures will accept or deny it, maybe even imprisoning the "offenders"
and maybe even a "some cultures/races tolerate it, some bathe in it, some burn you on the stakes for it" kind of deal (i would refrain from a "humans hate it, elves love it kind of deal, and prefer a toss of dice at world creation though)

what better way to make interesting historical events or fortress events then juliette and juliette falling in love, but it is forbidden, therefore being outcasted by the city, later on they both kill a dragon threatening the town and everything cool again for them...

a masterfully engraved image of juliette and juliette the dragon slayers slaying the dragon and regaining there towns approval, juliette and juliette are fornicating on the dragons corpse, the townspeople are rejoicing over the death of the dragon

i mean, dwarf fortress should have all sorts of these things, this is after all a game moving more and more into procedurally generated content to a degree that increases the immersion and storytelling capabilities

basically i feel limiting these things is probably the worst possible choice you can pick, we should be encouraging these things, not just same sex couples, but any sort of "possible double edge taboo behaviour" that really shape and distinguish societies and cultures from each other

i want to see dwarven empires taking over the elves necro-cannibalistic tendencies due to great famines in there past, and the other dwarven empires frowning upon these actions
i want to see men as traders, and other towns refusing to trade with a man, believing this is a womens job just because it has been the job of a women for decades on rows that it would seem weird to suddenly give it to a man
i want to see polygamy, due to a low male birthrate in history in a local region
i want to see drama and culture as its supposed to be, not this "lovely dovely" lets all be conformist crap some people would love to steer towards...

additionally, it would be a great way for dwarven fortress to define itself as an adult game, with diverse adult views on these topics without the game itself judging or steering moral choices or thought the player might have while playing

players dont want to be told what is good and what is evil in a game, personally i would be quite amused with generating a procedural world where (procedurally decided) any gay men are burned on the stake and any gay women is glamorised and idolised, these things are pure and raw culture and are a better way of predicting gays in games then any other game i know of has done so far... yea... i dare you to find a gay game character that was not put in just to be "the gay character", and is not an utter stereotype... games suck on mature topics... even porn... (im not talking about games that "are" porn i'm talking about games "about" porn or at least have a part of there storyline starring something related to porn.. just doesn't happen... unless uber stereotypes are used (playboy the mansion for example)

to be honest and to sum it up in a tldr: i want to see cultural drama procedurally generated, and i want to see it having a cause and an effect for certain civilisations and the more taboo, the better
if anyone is against implementing taboo, then they probably never dug up the shiny blue stuff, or actually read the elven history before... and they should... we already know dwarves can do depraved acts... whatever these are should be determined procedurally and be part of culture and not race properties

TL:NEDG

(Too Long:[with] Not Enough Decent Grammar)

[psychologicalshock]

The CDC found that MSM's have 44 times the chance to be infected with a HIV and have by far the highest rate of new infection, most are not aware they are infected. The CDC also found that 1 in 5 MSM's have HIVs . This is unsurprising to anyone who has read on the issue seriously - gay relationships tend to be far more temporary and they go through partners faster than they go through their underwear. Conclusion? If you want to model after reality a gay fortress would fit the old 1980's stereotype - a shithole dying of disease. Don't blame me if this hurts your feelings, you guys pushed the issue.

[Mel_Vixen]

Well played! I applaud you! Not only do you use one single US centric study (which is utterly outdated) on HIV but you also pick numbers at will. Not mentioning Education, social situation, or ethnicy which all are part of that statistic in your mentioned study is another wonderful idea mnay politicans can learn from you.

Seriously why do i keep feeding trolls? Also i cant see how the issue was "Pushed". Why should we only look at this one single illness, not to mention one that is by far not in the timeframe of df? How about talking about tripper, syphilis or clamydia? Then your gay "shithole dying of disease" has a bed right next to a straight "shithole dying of disease".

edit: some wording changed.