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[knaveofstaves]

No, I'm assuming that traits are lines because I know that attributes are lines. Traits are harder to test because Dwarf Therapist gives numbers but has no export data function that I am aware of (that grid view thing isn't it), Runesmith exports data but saves traits in verbal form (which I guess I could program a spreadsheet to work around ), and neither one reports anything for values 40-60 (which I guess I could estimate, but... ).

So if you've got a link to someone plotting the distribution of an average trait, I'd love it.

[G-Flex]

But no race is ever 50% gay.  They would never survive, evolutionarilly.  The max would be something like 10% I'd think.

"50% gay" doesn't imply that half the population is exclusively homosexual, though.


We shouldn't necessarily look at this in too modern terms, either. Different cultures had different ways of looking at orientation, sex, and gender roles. See the Greeks, for instance.

[Mel_Vixen]

The question is if we need marriage at all and how we treat interspecies stuff (Strike 2/3rd of the readers offended). In my opinion we need 2 systems here because the issue has 2 "Layers" namely what is "natural" and what are the "morals"/"ethics" of a given society. 


1st: One that determines preferences over a more or less wide range.

Why not using the good old Kinsey-scale and adding some tidbits like Mister McElf living and preffering a polygamistic lifestyle or Urist McHauler having a eye for human females for theyr tallness and theyr huge assets. Its not like you can reduce sexuality and relationships down to 1on1 + Straight/bi/gay.

This stuff has not to be harder then any other traits in the raws and it would be i think the right thing to get a "natural" mix respective what we determine what the natural mix for a species should be.


2nd: A better cultural system which introduces taboos respektive encourages some behavior.

While say one society accepts 17 different gender roles another one may only accept male/female relationships where the male is the dominant part. A religion may encourage males having a harem and another one may be totally fine with swinging while number 3 does not like that and other things at all. If one of these exists long enough or gets big enough, they might even pass on that view on the general population aka Culture.   

This values and views can then influence the people. A secretly gay dwarf can then be forced to have sex with a female because the "society" (ranging from family over friends to igger crowds like religious groups) demands it and because the dwarf has the "tradionalist" trait. He has not to be happy thought (like most people that were "cured" from being gay) and it could drive him mad.



btw.: Dwarfen couples sleep already in the same bed very often even together so there is your "quality" time.

[Jeoshua]

Jeoshua McModder cancels post: Repeating himself over and over x50
Jeoshua McModder has withdrawn from this thread.

Spoiler: Heph Readme (click to show/hide)

Not that I disagree with you Heph... I just have nothing new to say to those who keep hammering tiny points instead of looking at the big picture (not you)

[NW_Kohaku]

2nd: A better cultural system which introduces taboos respektive encourages some behavior.

While say one society accepts 17 different gender roles another one may only accept male/female relationships where the male is the dominant part. A religion may encourage males having a harem and another one may be totally fine with swinging while number 3 does not like that and other things at all. If one of these exists long enough or gets big enough, they might even pass on that view on the general population aka Culture.   

This values and views can then influence the people. A secretly gay dwarf can then be forced to have sex with a female because the "society" (ranging from family over friends to igger crowds like religious groups) demands it and because the dwarf has the "tradionalist" trait. He has not to be happy thought (like most people that were "cured" from being gay) and it could drive him mad.

Yeah, this is exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see in the game.  More of the subtle influences of culture upon the way dwarves act, and a wide range of possible cultural norms about marriage, as well as sex.

btw.: Dwarfen couples sleep already in the same bed very often even together so there is your "quality" time.

Really?  I don't watch my bedrooms very closely (I tend to watch the meeting hall and workshops), so I've never noticed this happening before. 

If anything, I think this is the result of the way that two dwarves sharing the same bed who just happen to need to go to sleep at the same time will happen to occupy the same bed.  I wouldn't think that would happen "very often", since dwarves don't sleep much.

[Jeoshua]

Okay I feel better now.

I won't starve to death, promise

The mention of Harems got me thinking: I have an Arabian-inspired human entity in my personal game.  I'd love it it harems were possible.  In fact, it might be, if I made it a "position" that could be assigned by the Sultan "as-needed".  And the Sultan's Consort would basically just be named "first wife" or whathaveyou.

Excuse me, I need to get back to modding now

[NW_Kohaku]

Okay I feel better now.

I won't starve to death, promise

The mention of Harems got me thinking: I have an Arabian-inspired human entity in my personal game.  I'd love it it harems were possible.  In fact, it might be, if I made it a "position" that could be assigned by the Sultan "as-needed".  And the Sultan's Consort would basically just be named "first wife" or whathaveyou.

Excuse me, I need to get back to modding now

Someone tried to do a mod where sentients had the [PET] tag, so you could have a single dwarf start adopting "pet" dwarves, and you'd wind up with a "Den Mother" who had a huge collection of pets following her around everywhere.

[Bohandas]

But no race is ever 50% gay.  They would never survive, evolutionarilly.  The max would be something like 10% I'd think.

"50% gay" doesn't imply that half the population is exclusively homosexual, though.

True, it could also mean that, for instance, 100% of them are bisexual (a phenomenon which occurs in nature, BTW, in the Bonobo ape)

[Jeoshua]

True, it could also mean that, for instance, 100% of them are bisexual (a phenomenon which occurs in nature, BTW, in the Bonobo ape)

A 100% bisexuality rate wouldn't be against nature, no.  It would still allow for breeding to occur, and the race to continue.

It's just if over half of them are totally homosexual, and refuse to breed at all.  Those races wouldn't make it past a few generations, whittling away slowly due to lack of a good amount of children.

Maybe that's one of the reasons why elves are going extinct, slowly, as they should be if we're going for a Tolkien-inspired view of the elves.  A lack of passion, coupled with a lack of desire to breed, would lead to a declining population even among a race of near-immortals.

[Bohandas]

True, it could also mean that, for instance, 100% of them are bisexual (a phenomenon which occurs in nature, BTW, in the Bonobo ape)

It's just if over half of them are totally homosexual, and refuse to breed at all.  Those races wouldn't make it past a few generations, whittling away slowly due to lack of a good amount of children.

In that case I would point to the examples of ants and bees, in which the vast majority of any given population are effectively completely asexual, but which generally get on just fine.

[Jeoshua]

Well those are queen-based hives.  The queen does nothing BUT give birth, constantly.  All day.  Every day.

That's not what we're talking about.  If the queen was gay, no more bee hive.

[NW_Kohaku]

True, it could also mean that, for instance, 100% of them are bisexual (a phenomenon which occurs in nature, BTW, in the Bonobo ape)

A 100% bisexuality rate wouldn't be against nature, no.  It would still allow for breeding to occur, and the race to continue.

It's just if over half of them are totally homosexual, and refuse to breed at all.  Those races wouldn't make it past a few generations, whittling away slowly due to lack of a good amount of children.

Maybe that's one of the reasons why elves are going extinct, slowly, as they should be if we're going for a Tolkien-inspired view of the elves.  A lack of passion, coupled with a lack of desire to breed, would lead to a declining population even among a race of near-immortals.

Well, the thing about current DF elves is that their population is kept in check by their fighting in plenty of wars and bringing wood swords to an iron knife fight. 

Goblins are the same way - they "live forever" but get in so many wars that their entire species would probably go extinct if they weren't babysnatching replacement front line troops to die in their wars for them.  Oftentimes, the goblins still go extinct.

Elves are exceptionally fecund in the current game, especially with the preprogrammed sterility after ten children removed, and unopposed, will basically expand throughout all of the world's forests they can reach, and populate up to their maximum sustainable levels based upon food.

Basically, elven numbers are kept in check because life is cheap in elven culture.  They're willing to die to save a tree, but they don't seem too concerned with sentients.  I guess their "being one with nature" does start to bleed over into the "survival of the fittest" sort of mentality, a little like goblins, as well.

[Mel_Vixen]

to expand a little on kohakus stuff:

Well if 50% of a given population is "gay" it would just mean that the "straight" parts of said population have to increase the children output from 2.1 to 4.2 children to keep (a modern) population up. Totally feaseable for humans, 4 to 8 and more was actually once common in Europe and still is in the middle of Africa and some south american countries given that you dont contract aids.

Next thing would be ratio between male and female. If you have 70% males to 30% females it makes sense if a certain amount of the population is gay to keep fighting low and group cohesion up (depending on species). 

A longlived species like elves can drop more babys over a given time so   i would guess they could even survive with a 90% "gay" population as   long the females pop out a dozen or more children within a a century or   more. 
 
The "rarity" of children would most like also lead to a lower Child-mortality rate because the many aunts, uncles etc. can help with education, food and protection.

[NW_Kohaku]

That all depends upon how many children actually live to reach maturity and have that number of children, though.

Immortal elves who have any number of children two or greater will be capable of overwhelming the entire world with children.

It's the death rate that balances this all out - you have to hit that "terminal velocity" (heh) where the force of growth rate is balanced out by the force of death, in this case, that would be death to violence and starvation (possibly disease, when that gets implemented). 

Having "Completely Gay" elves would functionally just cut the average number of children per couple, but if elves can still have unlimited children from a single couple, that would be meaningless without a death rate. 

I also wonder if we should be arguing for strictly monogamous relationships while we are arguing for homosexuality to be included in the game - extramarital affairs, and even polygamy were often caught up in the history of homosexuality.

The Romans, for example, were perfectly fine with bisexuality, but they thought being "absolutely homosexual" was strange behavior, and would socially coerce men of high social standing to take (official) wives to form a social face, even while letting those men go have fun with who (or what) ever they so desired. 

Some of the emperors even passed laws that essentially required high-born men and women to produce high-born offspring, through tax and social perk policies, just to keep the population levels of the higher classes up, since they generally had little interest in their actual spouses, and were so busy having their way with slaves (whose children would also be slaves) to actually keep the first-class Roman population going.

[irmo]

But no race is ever 50% gay.  They would never survive, evolutionarilly.  The max would be something like 10% I'd think.

Meet Cnemidophorus neomexicanus. They are 100% lesbian females.