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[Jeoshua]

I did not know that; so you're saying we can't define a new ethics tag and set what each civilization's opinions toward that is? Or just not being able to define a new ethics tag?

No, we can most definitely change what a civ's ethics are.  We just can't make new ethics tags and set what they would mean.  There will be no [ETHICS:HOMOSEXUAL_MARRIAGE:ACCEPTABLE] tag.  I mean you can type it in but it won't do anything, and no amount of raw editing will or, indeed can, change that.

Basically, look at Raw files as a set of switches you can turn on or off, or dials you can tweak.  You can do all kinds of things, but you can't write "11" on a dial, turn it, and expect it to actually "go to 11"

[Mister Always]

I'm wondering how many of the people oppose the homosexuality implementation are just homophobes.

*INCOMING BISEXUAL GAY RIGHTS SUPPORTER ALERT*

There's no reason not to put in variant ethics when it comes to homosexual acceptance. It's true that Dwarf Fortress technology doesn't extend beyond the 14th century (pump stacks that spew magma out over the countryside notwithstanding), but to say that society standards should necessarily be held to the same standards, I'd say no. For one thing, it just isn't our world (oh rly?). Homosexuals were persecuted in large part because of religion (you know who you are...), because of that funky little passage in a certain funky little book that said "dudes shagging dudes is totally balls, yo, it's not cool". Dwarves do not adhere to the particular religion which centers around that funky little book - the gods they worship seem to have more to do with caverns, earth, fortresses, jewels, children, and BLOOOOOOD than...anything the funky little book god had to do with. So that's a big part of the "no, Toady won't, because" with the rug pulled out from under it. All falling to the ground and breaking its nose and shit.

Now let's consider the other problem, which is just the fear people have of the unknown. I'd say it's fairly stupid to say that dwarves would exhibit the same immediate revulsion to homosexuality that humans (some humans, at least) have, on account of the fact that they're not humans. They're tiny, squat, ugly geniuses (who still manage to seal themselves into the caverns while sealing it off) who live underground, sup well on mushroom booze and kitten tallow roasts, and emotionally balance out at something like "okay" because on one hand, their entire family got killed by goblins, but they just stood next to a waterfall and admired an artifact chert table with spikes of donkey hair on the other. On that note, dwarves live in a world full of gory shit, rampaging monsters from the dawn of time, goblins sending sieges a hundred men strong to ransack their fortress and steal their children, statues of bronze that inexplicably want to fuck their shit up, birds the size of airliners, giants who want to grind their bones to make their bread, a night filled with demons, and kobolds who steal their beloved siltstone mugs. Are two men/women kissing or going on break in their shared bedroom at the same time really going to freak them out, you think? Really? Sieges don't even ellicit a thought from them, but homosexuals will make them go "AAAAARGH UNNATURAL CLEANSE PURGE WITH MAGMA AND SALT CARVE STATUES FROM THEIR OBSIDIAN-ENCRUSTED CORPSES HUGA BUGA BUGA". Right, man, whatever.

Which is not to say I'd oppose different civs - even different civs among a single entity - having different views on homosexuality. I'd try my damn darndest to make my own civ swing around from the standpoint of "no gays allowed" and drown every member of an anti-gay civ in a pit full of carp (modded to be made of adamantine and sever extremities with every bite), though, but that's just me.

I say, put it in.

[devek]

There sure is a lot of tl;dr in this thread lol.

Honestly though, the only thing marriage means in DF is breeding.

Yes, in real life marriage means nothing. Bigots will rally against gay marriage because it "destroys the sanctity of marriage", while at the same time having affairs and and abuse the concept they speak of like nothing. Since marriage in our society boils down to legal rights and nothing else, there is no reason why we should deny though rights to gay people.

In DF though, there is no law system or power of attorney issues. Dwarfs only get married when they decide to have children, and they sure do pop them out. There is no evidence that dwarfs experience love outside of that, since there is not a case of dwarfs having children outside of marriage.

My tl;dr point, is that you shouldn't apply real life standards to dwarfs. What they do in their society doesn't have to jive with what humans do. If you want to imagine dwarfs are having hot gay and lesbian sex that is ok, but they don't get married unless they have children which is different than the way we do it in real life.

[Mister Always]

There sure is a lot of tl;dr in this thread lol.

Honestly though, the only thing marriage means in DF is breeding.

Yes, in real life marriage means nothing. Bigots will rally against gay marriage because it "destroys the sanctity of marriage", while at the same time having affairs and and abuse the concept they speak of like nothing. Since marriage in our society boils down to legal rights and nothing else, there is no reason why we should deny though rights to gay people.

In DF though, there is no law system or power of attorney issues. Dwarfs only get married when they decide to have children, and they sure do pop them out. There is no evidence that dwarfs experience love outside of that, since there is not a case of dwarfs having children outside of marriage.

My tl;dr point, is that you shouldn't apply real life standards to dwarfs. What they do in their society doesn't have to jive with what humans do. If you want to imagine dwarfs are having hot gay and lesbian sex that is ok, but they don't get married unless they have children which is different than the way we do it in real life.

If you weren't a tl;dr monkey, you'd have seen I made the same point in my post above yours.

[devek]

I started writing that before you finished that post hehe.

[G-Flex]

I don't think this game should shy away from an important human topic simply because it's currently a hot-button political issue.

Heterosexual marriage, children and all that went in fairly quickly to establish world gen with simple, ongoing histories, and so you'd be able to continue on your possibly isolated fortresses as well.  We've even got a marriage sphere, since gods of marriage are very common.  These days it might look like a political stake driven into the ground, but that's simply not the case.  As for where it goes from here, it's sort of a choice of which realities you want to model, which you want to idealize, which you want to omit, and how they are all prioritized -- I've added lots of physical characteristics now, without racism, and that more or less points toward adding sexual orientations and having them all merge in naturally in every society.

[Mister Always]

I don't think this game should shy away from an important human topic simply because it's currently a hot-button political issue.

Heterosexual marriage, children and all that went in fairly quickly to establish world gen with simple, ongoing histories, and so you'd be able to continue on your possibly isolated fortresses as well.  We've even got a marriage sphere, since gods of marriage are very common.  These days it might look like a political stake driven into the ground, but that's simply not the case.  As for where it goes from here, it's sort of a choice of which realities you want to model, which you want to idealize, which you want to omit, and how they are all prioritized -- I've added lots of physical characteristics now, without racism, and that more or less points toward adding sexual orientations and having them all merge in naturally in every society.

Toady <3

[Gloster]

I wholeheartedly agree with OP and I'm all for the implementation of homosexuality, bisexuality, cultural taboos and laws, with some religious prohibitions sprinkled on top.

As for the fantasy/historical setting of DF - Greeks culturally worshiped (male) gayness, the Romans openly enjoyed pretty much all aspects and shades of human sexuality up to and including bestiality, the Vikings tolerated it and the Chines were ok with it. Pretty much the only one having historically a serious deeply ingrained problem with homosexuality (and sexuality in general) are the Abrahamic religions.

Sex, sexuality, romance and love play a MAYOR part in our lives and totally omitting them and their variability from DF would be in my opinion impoverishing and making the game less then it can potentially be.

[MasterMorality]

Oh noes the media will get hold of it, the fundies will throw (yet another) pathetic hissy fit.
If it was to be implemented int he game, this really wouldn't matter.
Fuck the media, fuck the religions. They can, all of them, go and die.

The main reason for not implementing this is literally that it is mainly just a flavour thing and so, if it's implemented at all, should be shoved on the backburner.

[Gloster]

Is it just a flavor thing? One problem I currently have, is that I just don't really give a damn about my dwarfs. I don't remember their names and certainly not their looks, preferences or traits. To me, they might as well be specialized, task performing robots distinguished only by their color codes.

Now if they actually had some personality...

[devek]

The main reason for not implementing this is literally that it is mainly just a flavour thing and so, if it's implemented at all, should be shoved on the backburner.

Incorrect. More complex social interaction besides just friendship and breeding for dwarfs isn't on the backburner, such things will happen naturally as the world of Dwarf Fortress evolves. As Gloster said, dwarfs mostly lack personality at all right now. We are only at version .31, so just be patient hehe.
 

[MasterMorality]

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not against giving them personality at all. My point is that, if you were to implement, or not, implement things like that, the media and some zealot nutjobs should be the least of the reasons for not doing it. Practical reasoning is far better.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree that it would be very interesting to see some of the personalities and groups, etc, react to these things (as in some might be homophobic, racist etc) - sure it's not pretty, but not a lot of is. It'd certainly give the player a deeper connection/view/take/stance on their little generated worlds

I would be fine with any dwarf being able to start a relationship with another dwarf, regardless of gender, but once we start having civilizations exiling them, we're bringing up sensitive issues from the real world that will put many people off the game.

The game's ASCII, man. Do you really think that level of close mindedness even looks at a game like this twice?

[ahonek]

Do we really want to drag the bigotry and ignorance of the real world into this amazing game?

I personally think the game works much better abstracting certain things, like passing waste and sex. I would be fine with any dwarf being able to start a relationship with another dwarf, regardless of gender, but once we start having civilizations exiling them, we're bringing up sensitive issues from the real world that will put many people off the game.

I think we have enough reasons for people not to play the game. We don't need to make people feel uncomfortable while playing it too.

Edit:

I would be fine with any dwarf being able to start a relationship with another dwarf, regardless of gender, but once we start having civilizations exiling them, we're bringing up sensitive issues from the real world that will put many people off the game.

The game's ASCII, man. Do you really think that level of close mindedness even looks at a game like this twice?

Do I need to be closed-minded to feel uncomfortable when people are exiled for being homosexual? I can't tell if you're being serious.
How about we have some civilizations beat homosexuals to death in the streets, to foster a more realistic cultural simulation?

Do you see what I'm getting at? It's not appropriate to have these things in this game.

[Gloster]

I think ahonek has a point, but ignoring the issue completely and vanishing gays out of existence hardly seems to be the optimal remedy.

[IT 000]

Overall your entire argument falls apart at the question "Why?" (Don't worry, many arguments do) We don't have homosexuality now in the game, it isn't depriving the players of anything, likewise it isn't causing any huge riots over the lack of said homo/bisexuality.

Translation: OP, your thoughts don't carry the day, there's no consensus, we can't have it because people aren't rioting.

No what I'm saying is that it's quiet without having samesex options in the game. With it implemented, the Forums is going to become as bitter as WWI

Furthermore it would destroy the fragile ecosystem of the boards. People will constantly be debating a moral topic that a majority of people still consider taboo. No matter which side of the table you are on, everyone will always leave angry.

Translation: OP, don't express your thoughts, don't try to build a consensus, your mere attempts will start a riot.

Still not what I said. Expressing your thoughts is fine, but you must consider the consequences. Gay marriage is a hot button issue that not everyone agrees or disagrees with. It does not belong in a game.

I was neutral on the implementation of sexual orientation before I read this bullying. Now I am vehemently for it. A squadron of gay male war polar bears guarding my fortress is the best. idea. ever. I'll call them the Sacred Band.

Bullying? He offered an idea, I stated a likely outcome as well as my opinion. This is debating good sir and if this is a problem the Suggestions board is not the place to be.